EDIT--fixed!! mooney flap question pt 3. need part #

[Shadrach]

On 2/5/2019 at 1:51 PM, rbridges said:

They work and hold, but it's almost like the first pump doesn't count. I don't know if there is still air or if it's related to the balls not seating 100%, but I was going to see if it improves over time. It's minor at this point, so I don't want to disassemble everything just in case it's air and will improve. 

There’s likely air in the system. It will likely work itself out overtime (warm temperatures will hasten the process).  You may be able to facilitate the process by pumping the flaps with the check valve open (lever up). I’ll shoot some video when I’m out of the drome later today so that you can see exactly how a properly adjusted, air free  system works on the ground.

Edited July 16, 2019 by Shadrach

[Andy95W]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

There’s likely air in the system. It will likely work itself out overtime

⬆️

My experience exactly.

[carusoam]

5 hours ago, rbridges said:

They work and hold, but it's almost like the first pump doesn't count. I don't know if there is still air or if it's related to the balls not seating 100%, but I was going to see if it improves over time. It's minor at this point, so I don't want to disassemble everything just in case it's air and will improve. 

RB,

That is how the system worked on day one, 50 years ago... the first pump ‘pressurizes’ the system...

whether it does or doesn’t... the first pump is a necessity of the system for some reason...

It would be interesting if somebody doesn't have the first pump stroke in their system..?

It is as if the hydraulic piston comes back further than it needs to when released...  

 

anyone have insight to why that first pump doesn’t get used, or why it isn’t needed, or how to skip the extra pump?

Best regards,

-a-

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

RB,

That is how the system worked on day one, 50 years ago... the first pump ‘pressurizes’ the system...

whether it does or doesn’t... the first pump is a necessity of the system for some reason...

It would be interesting if somebody doesn't have the first pump stroke in their system..?

It is as if the hydraulic piston comes back further than it needs to when released...  

 

anyone have insight to why that first pump doesn’t get used, or why it isn’t needed, or how to skip the extra pump?

Best regards,

-a-

I’m sorry Anthony but that’s simply not true. There are a number of Mooneys flying around with poorly adjusted and poorly set up flap systems. I took some video tonight when I was at the drome of how the system should work. 

Edited February 6, 2019 by Shadrach

[Shadrach]

@carusoam @rbridges

Forgive the poor production quality. This was a quick one take done with my iPhone.

note the flap indicator on the wheel well. My first pump puts flaps at the top of the takeoff position.

Edited February 6, 2019 by Shadrach

[Hank]

15 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Forgive the poor production quality. This was a quick one take done with my iPhone.

note the flap indicator on the wheel well. My first pump puts flaps at the top of the takeoff position.

It's interesting how high up [i.e., small flap deployment] your Takeoff position is! Mine is almost halfway through the range.

 

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

It's interesting how high up [i.e., small flap deployment] your Takeoff position is! Mine is almost halfway through the range.

 

Your take off setting appears to be half flaps. Mine is about a third. I wonder if the setting was changed on all electric flap aircraft or if the manual flap C models have the same position. I have taken off at all flap settings. The more I use, the steeper the climb (rise increase over run) but the apparent pitch is lower (nose appears lower).  It climbs fine at all setting but it would be interesting to see what setting gets the plane off the runway in the shortest distance and what setting gets the plane off in the shortest distance.  The two are probably close but not the same. @Marauderdoes the flap indicator in your F mirror that of Hank's C?

 

  @Marauder does the take off flap position on your F mirror Hank's?  

 

[Marauder]

Your take off setting appears to be half flaps. Mine is about a third. I wonder if the setting was changed on all electric flap aircraft or if the manual flap C models have the same position. I have taken off at all flap settings. The more I use, the steeper the climb (rise increase over run) but the apparent pitch is lower (nose appears lower).  It climbs fine at all setting but it would be interesting to see what setting gets the plane off the runway in the shortest distance and what setting gets the plane off in the shortest distance.  The two are probably close but not the same. [mention=9886]Marauder[/mention]does the flap indicator in your F mirror that of Hank's C?
 
  [mention=9886]Marauder[/mention] does the take off flap position on your F mirror Hank's?  
 

I have a 15° and 33° setting. The 75 models use a detent style controller instead of the toggle Hank has.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[Hank]

Sorry, @Marauder. The F I've flown was the same way. Really made me miss my infinitely adjustable electric flaps. But the F lands much better with Full Flaps, whike my C does very well almost anywhere between Takeoff and Full. 

[Marauder]

Sorry, [mention=9886]Marauder[/mention]. The F I've flown was the same way. Really made me miss my infinitely adjustable electric flaps. But the F lands much better with Full Flaps, whike my C does very well almost anywhere between Takeoff and Full. 

I think the detent is unique to the 75 model. I have flown Js with the toggle. I really like the detent style. No question what position the flap is set for.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, Marauder said:

 

I have a 15° and 33° setting. The 75 models use a detent style controller instead of the toggle Hank has.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

I wanna know where you got the plastic eyeball vent for the console.   My flapper thingie disintegrated and I just have a gaping hole there right now.

[Marauder]

I wanna know where you got the plastic eyeball vent for the console.   My flapper thingie disintegrated and I just have a gaping hole there right now.

I will verify this is the correct one.

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/plasticeyeball1.php

You will need a wedge to set the angle correctly.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[Marauder]

I wanna know where you got the plastic eyeball vent for the console.   My flapper thingie disintegrated and I just have a gaping hole there right now.

The part number you need is Aircraft Spruce’s number: 05-04073. Manufacturer number is 9977005-01.

Aircraft Spruce’s site doesn’t show it listed currently. You might be able to locate it elsewhere or see if Spruce will special order it. It is called a Whisperflo Ventilator.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[carusoam]

Nice work, Ross!

You just changed a mis-belief that I only carried for 19 years... 

The 60s must have been a great decade for mechanical engineering!

Thanks for posting the detailed video.

Best regards,

-a-

[Shadrach]

On 2/6/2019 at 9:07 PM, carusoam said:

Nice work, Ross!

You just changed a mis-belief that I only carried for 19 years... 

The 60s must have been a great decade for mechanical engineering!

Thanks for posting the detailed video.

Best regards,

-a-

I think there are a lot of people that hold the same belief that you did. The system is an interesting study in a simple and elegant design that seems to really challenge some folks when setting it up. My guess is that it comes from maintenance performed by MX professionals who've worked on Mooneys but aren't Mooney specialists or enthusiasts.  I doubt seriously that a plane would leave Clarence's, Dmax's, or Lasar's shop in any state other than what the video depicts because they know how it should function.  The other thing is that whiles setting it up is not difficult, it can be time consuming, can require two people and entails a lot of time on your back. Many folks don't want to deal with it and many CBs would balk at the time required to sort it out. To remove, reseal (actuator and pump), reinstall, fill, bleed, and adjust system from open to close probably takes in excess of 6hrs, maybe 4 if things go really well.

[rbridges]

On 2/4/2019 at 5:12 PM, Open4cycle said:

If you provide the drawings and material type / grade I can fabricate these seats for you. I'm thinking for this to be legal they have to be fabricated from the original design drawing.

 

On 2/4/2019 at 4:03 PM, M20F-1968 said:

If you can get me a sketch of the teflon parts, and some information about the material, I can probably make then given that I have  metal lathe.

John Breda

 

I didn't realize I took all 3 measurements but I did.  Anyway, the teflon inserts are 

height .0835 inches/2.12 mm

OD .3755 inches/9.53 mm

ID .185 inches/4.69 mm

I think the material is PTFE.  Basically a teflon material.   Do you think either of you could fabricate something to this tolerance?  With the original company out of business, I think finding anything more specific about the inserts will be very difficult.  Dan at LASAR basically said he had nothing to add.

[carusoam]

RB,

You have the most import details! The dimensions are key.

PTFE is THE Teflon material....

you might find a company that molds washers.... like these guys...   https://www.newprocess.com/ptfe-washers/

If not that solution, machining TFE is similar to machining soft materials... very soft material... drilling and lathing are pretty straight forwards.... start with a rod that has the right OD, cut the length, then drill the center out...

Make up a few... lightly countersink one for fun... to avoid the break-in period that is inevitable... the old one appears to be countersunk... the new one has square edges...

PTFE was a great discovery... Somebody in a lab at DuPont had a gas cylinder of TFE gas... when they went to use it... there was no pressure in the cylinder.... but the tank weighed like it was full.... when they opened the tank they found a bunch of white powder at the bottom of it... it was an auto-catalyzed chemical reaction that made PTFE...

To make usable parts out of the TFE powder is another challenge... the melt temp is above the oxidation/degradation temp.... 

PP thoughts only, not a plastics lathe operator in a skived tape shop.....

Best regards,

-a-

[Open4cycle]

Most likely the design part used a sharp corner or lightly broken edge for the ball seal. Less contact surface provides less area for foreign material to become trapped between the sealing surfaces creating a leak. This is why when available using a design drawing is a better option than measuring a used part. I can make you several pieces when I get some Teflon stock in.

 

[rbridges]

9 hours ago, Open4cycle said:

Most likely the design part used a sharp corner or lightly broken edge for the ball seal. Less contact surface provides less area for foreign material to become trapped between the sealing surfaces creating a leak. This is why when available using a design drawing is a better option than measuring a used part. I can make you several pieces when I get some Teflon stock in.

 

I sent you a PM.  Thanks!

[carusoam]

Twin avatars!   ^^^^

I got confused to who was typing what...  

Somebody had reported that the Teflon cylinder starts life as a perfect cylinder and gets compressed over time...

the Teflon is quite pliable... but may be better off having the edge removed... to end up in the same place...

Best regards,

-a-

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

Twin avatars!   ^^^^

I got confused to who was typing what...  

Somebody had reported that the Teflon cylinder starts life as a perfect cylinder and gets compressed over time...

the Teflon is quite pliable... but may be better off having the edge removed... to end up in the same place...

Best regards,

-a-

Having seen these things a part many times, I think manufacturing them using OD, ID and thickness is best bet. No need to do anything to the edges. This is not a sophisticated part, it’s basically a teflon washer. I am betting that there are currently pieces manufactured for other applications that would work as turn key replacements.

[Hank]

I put teflon washers under my inspection plate screws to protect them. But they are far from 0.185" thick, maybe 0.030"?