Panel upgrade, looking for opinions

[anthonydesmet]

We're expecting an upgrade to the Aspen platform around the first of the year. The new version will be called the AspenMAX. The current word is that a combination AspenMAX PFD/MFD won't require any other instruments at all.

So does that mean I can still use my existing PFD or do I now need to get this MAX PFD?


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[gsxrpilot]

4 minutes ago, anthonydesmet said:

So does that mean I can still use my existing PFD or do I now need to get this MAX PFD?

You'll have to upgrade your current PFD to a MAX. Supposedly starting in Jan, there will be a window where Aspen is offering a special on the upgrade. I believe it will be $3000 to basically upgrade your current PFD to MAX with a new screen, faster processor, and most importantly a brand new warrantee.

I intend to upgrade my PFD to MAX as soon as its available. I haven't decided on adding an MFD yet.

[anthonydesmet]

You'll have to upgrade your current PFD to a MAX. Supposedly starting in Jan, there will be a window where Aspen is offering a special on the upgrade. I believe it will be $3000 to basically upgrade your current PFD to MAX with a new screen, faster processor, and most importantly a brand new warrantee.
I intend to upgrade my PFD to MAX as soon as its available. I haven't decided on adding an MFD yet.

Hmmm, looks like I might investigate option 2.....sell Aspen PFD and go Garmin G500 10 inch


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[Marauder]

You'll have to upgrade your current PFD to a MAX. Supposedly starting in Jan, there will be a window where Aspen is offering a special on the upgrade. I believe it will be $3000 to basically upgrade your current PFD to MAX with a new screen, faster processor, and most importantly a brand new warrantee.
I intend to upgrade my PFD to MAX as soon as its available. I haven't decided on adding an MFD yet.

It’s actually $1995 to upgrade a PFD and another $1995 to upgrade a MFD.




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[smccray]

Don’t these threads always turn into Aspen vs Garmin bashing threads?  I’ll start us down that path.

My problem with aspen is that the future is unclear. What happens with the avionics in your plane long term?  There aren’t any promises in aviation, but there are indications.

What do your do with your autopilot?  You’re waiting for a digital King system if it ever materializes, but it’s unclear if the Aspen will provide an attitude reference for the new King autopilot. What we do know is that it’s a $10k Bill. The Aspen won’t work with the Garmin GFC500.  They’re working on integration with one of the independent autopilots (trutrack, ????) but the future there isn’t clear with Mooney.

If it we’re me, I would stick with your original plan, perhaps add a G5, and wait.  If your avionics shop isn’t a Garmin dealer (the G5 doesn’t count), I would question the advice of the dealer as he/she can’t sell you Garmin certified equipment. 

The Aspen is a fantastic piece of equipment and it has more capability than the G5. I don’t think it matters for most installations where the Aspen is on the table. In 2008 it was awesome capability. Today- not so much. 

Edited November 26, 2018 by smccray

[Cruiser]

19 hours ago, smccray said:

My problem with aspen is that the future is unclear. What happens with the avionics in your plane long term?  There aren’t any promises in aviation, but there are indications.

Why? What indications do you see?

Just announced new E5 last summer, Newly announced MAX upgrade, FULLY backward compatible with ALL previous units.

Very price competitive.

What am I missing?

[gsxrpilot]

19 hours ago, smccray said:

My problem with aspen is that the future is unclear. What happens with the avionics in your plane long term?  There aren’t any promises in aviation, but there are indications.

Hmmmm... the future seems pretty clear to me. Aspen is has released and is releasing upgrades to their units. They don't integrate with the GFC500 but that's on Garmin, not Aspen. All the other autopilots have indicated that they'll fully support Aspen.

The new Stec3100 will fully support Aspen for all features including IAS, Alt, rate of climb, etc. Just because Garmin doesn't want to play nice, doesn't seem to me to be a problem for Aspen.

In fact with the new AspenMAX units, a PFD/MFD pair won't require any other back up instruments as they will back each other up. Garmin can't do that with any of it's PFD/MFD products. Put in the brand new G500TXi and you've still got to have a G5 to drive your GFC500 autopilot? I'm sure the G500TXi is a beautiful display. But having a pair of Aspens gives me a cleaner panel and even more capability when connected to either my KFC150 today or the Stec3100 in the future.

And talking about the future being unclear... the whole G1000/WAAS/ADSB/Mooney debacle doesn't inspire confidence to jump and get locked in to the Garmin ecosystem.

9 minutes ago, Cruiser said:

Why? What indications do you see?

Just announced new E5 last summer, Newly announced MAX upgrade, FULLY backward compatible with ALL previous units.

Very price competitive.

What am I missing?

I think you've got it... or at least that's how I see it as well.

Without any care for the costs, I'll take the Aspen PFD/MFD over anything Garmin has released to date.

[Marauder]

Personally I think Scott has been abducted by Peter Garmin (BTW - where has he been lately? Oh wait I know, he is at the avionics shop waiting for his KFC 300 to be installed) and brainwashed. The first sign was him selling his Mooney for a Bonanza and now these comments. Clearly his thinking has been altered.


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[LANCECASPER]

21 hours ago, smccray said:

 

What do your do with your autopilot?  You’re waiting for a digital King system if it ever materializes, but it’s unclear if the Aspen will provide an attitude reference for the new King autopilot. What we do know is that it’s a $10k Bill. The Aspen won’t work with the Garmin GFC500.  They’re working on integration with one of the independent autopilots (trutrack, ????) but the future there isn’t clear with Mooney.

King has already said that they are cooperating with Aspen. Word on the street is that the interface that goes between the autopilot and KI300 was developed by Aspen.

[smccray]

2 hours ago, Marauder said:

Personally I think Scott has been abducted by Peter Garmin (BTW - where has he been lately? Oh wait I know, he is at the avionics shop waiting for his KFC 300 to be installed) and brainwashed. The first sign was him selling his Mooney for a Bonanza and now these comments. Clearly his thinking has been altered.


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Truth be told, I’m not pro Garmin. They got me for the the cost of a GFC600 instead of a GFC500 using the STC process. The 500 is good for the 4 seat bonanza and the long body Mooneys, and good for a Cessna 210. Conclusion: it’s not speed nor is it seat capacity. I spent the cash but Garmin hasn’t bought any loyalty.

In reality I’m anti Aspen. They have a great product, but the best I can tell the next generation is basically an upgraded screen and an upgraded processor. Okay... great. So what?  They had the right idea with the Connected Panel system but they couldn’t get it done. I’ve heard that’s Garmin’s responsibility, but I don’t accept that. Which engine monitor interfaces and displays on the Aspen?

if I still owned my Mooney I would be doing one of two things- 1) adding a G5 hsi and waiting.  That gets rid of the unreliable King HSI.  Then I wait and see what Garmin comes out with next.  I believe something is cooking in a lower cost PFD that will require a Garmin navigator and will run the GFC500. Or 2) waiting for Dynon.  Godot might arrive before Dynon is an option, but I’m hopeful that the System will bring lower cost glass to certified GA.  The lack of news about Dynon systems is a little concerning, but I’m hopeful. 

51 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

King has already said that they are cooperating with Aspen. Word on the street is that the interface that goes between the autopilot and KI300 was developed by Aspen.

Smart move by King and Aspen.  I hope it works. However, if I currently owned an Aspen panel I would be looking for an interface between the Aspen as an HSI and the G5 as the backup using a GFC500. King hasn’t earned an additional $10k investment in a new autopilot- the new Garmin autopilot is the best option for most Mooneys assuming the STC comes through.  King hasn’t paid attention to piston GA in years. STEC 3100 is 10k using old servos. Most Mooneys have King autopilots.

 

I’m on the record saying that Aspen won’t survive long term. Avionics are moving towards integrated systems, and that’s finally moving to retrofit avionics. To be viable, Aspen needs to bring 1) a larger screen option and 2) better integration with other systems including autopilot annunciations (which needs a larger screen) and engine monitor.  I hope Aspen is successful and I want them around, but for any Mid and Short body Mooney the Dynon system is a major problem for legacy certificed avionics companies.

if Dynon and Garmin both release certified versions of experimental avionics... lights out for a number of legacy manufacturers.

[LANCECASPER]

Aspen has over 14,000 screens in use. For the past ten years I keep reading about their demise and they keep plugging along. Installers I've talked to really appreciate the straight forward design and the ease of installation. They work with almost anything out there, new or legacy and you can build the system one screen at a time if you want. They are definitely the David not the Goliath but I appreciate their updates and their innovation. They are very intuitive to learn and a pleasure to fly behind. The improvements they make are evolutionary not revolutionary, but they do the job.

[gsxrpilot]

Obviously there isn't any room for an engine monitor on the small Aspen screens. But there is a huge advantage to having the small "glass". The PFD and MFD can be separate units and therefore back each other up. Garmin can't do that with anything they have. Big screens mean you can only have one in front of the pilot. Therefore you have to have other backup instruments. In other words, it's NOT fully integrated. The idea that the GFC500 requires the G5 even if there's a G500TXi, is just silly.

I have both a G5 and an Aspen in my panel now... The G5 isn't half the Aspen and mine will soon be gone and replaced with the Aspen MFD.

At the end of the day, I want just what I need, maximum capability, but without all the extra stuff. I like a clean panel. Aspen allows me to do that. Garmin requires too much other stuff.

 

[smccray]

3 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Hmmmm... the future seems pretty clear to me. Aspen is has released and is releasing upgrades to their units. They don't integrate with the GFC500 but that's on Garmin, not Aspen. All the other autopilots have indicated that they'll fully support Aspen.

The new Stec3100 will fully support Aspen for all features including IAS, Alt, rate of climb, etc. Just because Garmin doesn't want to play nice, doesn't seem to me to be a problem for Aspen.

I’ll challenge you on this  the GFC500, despite its flaws being locked into the Garmin ecosystem, is the best autopilot option for any Mooney assuming the STC comes through.  Clean install you’re looking at $10k plus the G5’s.  Clean install on the King, STEC, are $20k+.  If you can reuse the existing servos the king and the STEC are cost comparable with Garmins new system.

Even the Dynon autopilot isn’t as good.  The last I heard Dynon does integrate with a trim servo installed in a certified airplane.

 

3 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

In fact with the new AspenMAX units, a PFD/MFD pair won't require any other back up instruments as they will back each other up. Garmin can't do that with any of it's PFD/MFD products. Put in the brand new G500TXi and you've still got to have a G5 to drive your GFC500 autopilot? I'm sure the G500TXi is a beautiful display. But having a pair of Aspens gives me a cleaner panel and even more capability when connected to either my KFC150 today or the Stec3100 in the future.

And talking about the future being unclear... the whole G1000/WAAS/ADSB/Mooney debacle doesn't inspire confidence to jump and get locked in to the Garmin ecosystem.

I think you've got it... or at least that's how I see it as well.

Without any care for the costs, I'll take the Aspen PFD/MFD over anything Garmin has released to date.

Garmin does offer a 2 screen G500 TXI where the second screen backs up the primary, but it’s not cost competitive. The Aspen is a better choice, albeit with screens that should be bigger.

If we’re intellectually honest, the glass systems doesn’t give us any more capability than the old 6 pack avionics that these systems are replacing.  I installed glass to get nearly everything on one screen right in front of me.  The screens are flexible and big which I like. 

Regarding the Garmin ecosystem and being locked in- I agree. It’s less than ideal. Garmin is IBM. 

[smccray]

4 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Obviously there isn't any room for an engine monitor on the small Aspen screens. But there is a huge advantage to having the small "glass". The PFD and MFD can be separate units and therefore back each other up. Garmin can't do that with anything they have. Big screens mean you can only have one in front of the pilot. Therefore you have to have other backup instruments. In other words, it's NOT fully integrated. The idea that the GFC500 requires the G5 even if there's a G500TXi, is just silly.

I have both a G5 and an Aspen in my panel now... The G5 isn't half the Aspen and mine will soon be gone and replaced with the Aspen MFD.

At the end of the day, I want just what I need, maximum capability, but without all the extra stuff. I like a clean panel. Aspen allows me to do that. Garmin requires too much other stuff.

 

I’ve never heard that smaller is an advantage...

If we want to start counting boxes we can, but it doesn’t really matter. Both manufacturer’s systems can produce a very clean installation worthy of the aircraft we fly. 

[gsxrpilot]

1 minute ago, smccray said:

I’ve never heard that smaller is an advantage...

If we want to start counting boxes we can, but it doesn’t really matter. Both manufacturer’s systems can produce a very clean installation worthy of the aircraft we fly. 

But as I understand it... even if I installed two G500TXi's... I'd still have to have the G5 to drive the GFC500?

[smccray]

Just now, gsxrpilot said:

But as I understand it... even if I installed two G500TXi's... I'd still have to have the G5 to drive the GFC500?

You’re probably right on that. Based on what I’ve seen on the GFC500 the G5 contains the brains for the GFC500.  I hadn’t considered that.

[gsxrpilot]

8 minutes ago, smccray said:

You’re probably right on that. Based on what I’ve seen on the GFC500 the G5 contains the brains for the GFC500.  I hadn’t considered that.

I almost installed the old version of the G500 in my Mooney last year. But I'd have had to keep almost all of my steam gauges as backups. So I went Aspen. Then when the TXi came out I was again thinking Garmin... but then that huge unit with the big screen can't drive an autopilot? I've got to still go install a G5. 

I have a G5 now in my panel packing up my single Aspen. But it's certainly not my primary anything as the Aspen does everything. Therefore I often don't set the Altimeter, the speed bug is who knows where... I just don't use it for anything. It's just required. 

But when I looked at the TXi and realised that of course it would be primary, it would be covering the bulk of the panel on the left side. It's what I'd be looking at 99% of the time... BUT the autopilot is not going to use it. The autopilot is going to use the G5. So now I've got to maintain both instruments. A big screen for me and a small screen for George. That's when I said, no thanks. I'll stay with the Aspen and my unused, unmonitored, G5. 

So then at Oshkosh, Aspen announces the MAX which means I can now get rid of that useless G5. The Aspen will now handle everything, back its self up, drive the autopilot including vertical speed, altitude pre-select, etc. To me, that's progress it the direction I want to be going. Me and George (autopilot) will use the same instruments, we'll have full redundancy and no extra boxes taking up space.

Obviously not everyone agrees with me because Garmin sells a shit load of screens. But I'm glad for the option Aspen gives me.

[smccray]

7 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I almost installed the old version of the G500 in my Mooney last year. But I'd have had to keep almost all of my steam gauges as backups. So I went Aspen. Then when the TXi came out I was again thinking Garmin... but then that huge unit with the big screen can't drive an autopilot? I've got to still go install a G5. 

I have a G5 now in my panel packing up my single Aspen. But it's certainly not my primary anything as the Aspen does everything. Therefore I often don't set the Altimeter, the speed bug is who knows where... I just don't use it for anything. It's just required. 

But when I looked at the TXi and realised that of course it would be primary, it would be covering the bulk of the panel on the left side. It's what I'd be looking at 99% of the time... BUT the autopilot is not going to use it. The autopilot is going to use the G5. So now I've got to maintain both instruments. A big screen for me and a small screen for George. That's when I said, no thanks. I'll stay with the Aspen and my unused, unmonitored, G5. 

So then at Oshkosh, Aspen announces the MAX which means I can now get rid of that useless G5. The Aspen will now handle everything, back its self up, drive the autopilot including vertical speed, altitude pre-select, etc. To me, that's progress it the direction I want to be going. Me and George (autopilot) will use the same instruments, we'll have full redundancy and no extra boxes taking up space.

Obviously not everyone agrees with me because Garmin sells a shit load of screens. But I'm glad for the option Aspen gives me.

The GFC500 is an odd combination with the G500. Experimental autopilot with the certified panel. The good news with that combination is that it does use the heading and course data from the G500 TXI or the navigator, so that tracks properly. It also carries over the baro imput on the G500 to the G5.  It’s really a nice setup.

That said- I would still wait on a G500txi on a Mooney.

[MIm20c]

@gsxrpilot One advantage I’d give to the Garmin unit is the ability to use the gad43 to provide encoding altimeter info to the BK AP’s. Your panel would look pretty clean with a G5, 7 inch txi, and edm900 on the pilots side panel.  The cost is pretty reasonable IMO with the g5/7txi/gad43 coming in around 13k...you’d have to keep your 297 for spinning the altitude preselect. 

[smccray]

28 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

@gsxrpilot One advantage I’d give to the Garmin unit is the ability to use the gad43 to provide encoding altimeter info to the BK AP’s. Your panel would look pretty clean with a G5, 7 inch txi, and edm900 on the pilots side panel.  The cost is pretty reasonable IMO with the g5/7txi/gad43 coming in around 13k...you’d have to keep your 297 for spinning the altitude preselect. 

GAD43E will provide attitude info to the king autopilot. Cost is $5k plus install <or> Spend $8k plus install for the GFC500, sell the old king autopilot parts and get a whole new system... and one less box in the panel. 

[MIm20c]

1 minute ago, smccray said:

GAD43E will provide attitude info to the king autopilot. Cost is $5k plus install <or> Spend $8k plus install for the GFC500, sell the old king autopilot parts and get a whole new system... and one less box in the panel. 

You can buy the gad43 new old stock for 750-1000. It’s a cheaper way to go if you already have a preselect installed. The TXI does not require an unlock to utilize the 43. 

[gsxrpilot]

31 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

@gsxrpilot One advantage I’d give to the Garmin unit is the ability to use the gad43 to provide encoding altimeter info to the BK AP’s. Your panel would look pretty clean with a G5, 7 inch txi, and edm900 on the pilots side panel.  The cost is pretty reasonable IMO with the g5/7txi/gad43 coming in around 13k...you’d have to keep your 297 for spinning the altitude preselect. 

I won't disagree with you. I don't like that the Aspen can't run the altitude preselect.

1 minute ago, smccray said:

GAD43E will provide attitude info to the king autopilot. Cost is $5k plus install <or> Spend $8k plus install for the GFC500, sell the old king autopilot parts and get a whole new system... and one less box in the panel. 

Actually I'll sell both the KFC150 and the G5. I'll add the Aspen MFD and install the Stec3100. The Aspen will provide ALL the info to the Stec including vertical speed, altitude preselect, etc. And I won't need the GAD43E or the G5. I'll also be able to remove the last two steam gauges.

[smccray]

25 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

You can buy the gad43 new old stock for 750-1000. It’s a cheaper way to go if you already have a preselect installed. The TXI does not require an unlock to utilize the 43. 

The 43 is different than the 43E. The 43 will integrate the legacy equipment, but it doesn’t provide an attitude signal to the autopilot. 

[MIm20c]

9 hours ago, smccray said:

The 43 is different than the 43E. The 43 will integrate the legacy equipment, but it doesn’t provide an attitude signal to the autopilot. 

The reverse, it provides attitude and corrected altitude info but does not integrate with legacy equipment. 

Edited November 27, 2018 by MIm20c

[Marauder]

The reverse, it provides attitude and corrected altitude info but does not integrate with legacy equipment. 

I remember that was one of the deciding factors for me to go with Aspen over the G500. The 43 was available and the 43e wasn’t available yet. And yeah, another factor was it going to add another $5k to the install cost.


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