Lukon Posted October 19, 2018 Report Share Posted October 19, 2018 (edited) Hi all, Looking to buy an M20C between Midland and Lubbock Texas. Anybody know a good pre-buy inspector who knows his way around Classic Mooney’s out there? New to MooneySpace btw... Edited October 19, 2018 by Lukon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LANCECASPER Posted October 19, 2018 Report Share Posted October 19, 2018 Lubbock Aero is a Mooney Service Center. Ive had them do a few oil changes over the years but they seem very competent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted October 19, 2018 Report Share Posted October 19, 2018 Welcome aboard Lukon. Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lukon Posted October 20, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2018 Thanks LanceCasper. I’ll give Lubbock Aero a call, and thanks for making me feel welcome carusoam. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LANCECASPER Posted October 20, 2018 Report Share Posted October 20, 2018 Here are some good resources when you are thinking about a pre-buy and about M20 C's in general: http://www.mooneypilots.com/mapalog/prepurchasehowwhy.html https://lasar.com/prebuy-check-list/ http://www.mooneypilots.com/mapalog/M20C Evaluation/M20C_Evaluation_Report.html 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIR2018 Posted October 20, 2018 Report Share Posted October 20, 2018 55 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said: Here are some good resources when you are thinking about a pre-buy and about M20 C's in general: http://www.mooneypilots.com/mapalog/prepurchasehowwhy.html https://lasar.com/prebuy-check-list/ http://www.mooneypilots.com/mapalog/M20C Evaluation/M20C_Evaluation_Report.html That first link is basically what happened in my case... the difference is I had the pre-purchase/annual done and the seller fixed a $7.5K invoice punch-list before I gave him a dime... I threw in an additional $2400 for the prepurchase, SB208 and normal wear items.. The plane itself (paint-job and interior) are outstanding and could easily have been a distraction from sound thinking...GET A PRE-PURCHASE! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mcstealth Posted October 22, 2018 Report Share Posted October 22, 2018 On 10/18/2018 at 7:04 PM, Lukon said: Hi all, Looking to buy an M20C between Midland and Lubbock Texas. Anybody know a good pre-buy inspector who knows his way around Classic Mooney’s out there? New to MooneySpace btw... Welcome to the Forum. Which town is the plane located? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lukon Posted October 24, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2018 She’s in LaMesa. I’ve been flying her all week and harassing the local mechanics. Sort of had to do my own pre-buy as money is running short (I know...) Weather is rainy, low ceilings last day or two. May Checkout in her tomorrow, add a couple charge points for my iPad and Stratux and fly her home at the end of the week... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LANCECASPER Posted October 24, 2018 Report Share Posted October 24, 2018 Not what you want to hear, but you're going from wanting a "Good Pre-buy" to your own pre-buy because money is running short. https://www.barnstormers.com/listing.php?mode=usersearch&user=146267 As an example, the Seller has the exterior listed as an "8" out of 10. In another thread on here you mention that the wings need a repaint. An "8" doesn't need the wings repainted. He mentions that 2 Monster Retreads are on the mains. Someone who doesn't cut corners on maintenance doesn't try to save $30/tire and pick Desser Monster Retreads ($95) over Michelin Condors ($125). Etc, etc. There are stories on Mooneyspace of people who bought one without a pre-buy and then couldn't get through the annual a few months later due to airworthy issues. Don't be that guy. Take the emotion out of it, put the logic back in and pay someone who deals with this every day for a few hours of their time to get an unbiased opinion. Someone who really knows Mooneys, by looking at the logs and looking over the airplane, can save you a lot of heartache. It may be a great deal on a great plane, but a pre-buy will confirm that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylw314 Posted October 24, 2018 Report Share Posted October 24, 2018 48 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said: Someone who doesn't cut corners on maintenance doesn't try to save $30/tire and pick Desser Monster Retreads ($95) over Michelin Condors ($125). Etc, etc. CB's like me do! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LANCECASPER Posted October 24, 2018 Report Share Posted October 24, 2018 1 hour ago, jaylw314 said: CB's like me do! I like to save as much as the next guy. Awhile back I ordered a couple Desser retreads after getting "sold" at the booth at Oshkosh. Maybe they have varying quality standards but the two I got I would have been embarrassed to put on my airplane. After I unwrapped them I could see where the recap met the tire from half way across the room. With the heat in Texas where I live, I could picture the recap separating like I see scattered all over the highways down here. Since my tires are critical on every take-off and landing, I'd rather save money some place else. At that point I figured if I have to save $30 per tire every 5-10 years to keep flying, I'll hang it up. Desser took them back and even offered to pay return shipping and they sent out my Michelin Condors before they even received the retreads back. I'll still buy the next set of tires from them just due to the good customer service Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylw314 Posted October 25, 2018 Report Share Posted October 25, 2018 14 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said: I like to save as much as the next guy. Awhile back I ordered a couple Desser retreads after getting "sold" at the booth at Oshkosh. Maybe they have varying quality standards but the two I got I would have been embarrassed to put on my airplane. After I unwrapped them I could see where the recap met the tire from half way across the room. With the heat in Texas where I live, I could picture the recap separating like I see scattered all over the highways down here. At that point I figured if I have to save $30 per tire every 5-10 years to keep flying, I'll hang it up. Desser took them back and even offered to pay return shipping and they sent out my Michelin Condors before they even received the retreads back. I'll still buy the next set of tires from them just due to the good customer service That's a good data point to hear about, I've been interested in getting Desser's after my current set wear out. I think my view is that between "you get what you pay for" and that money does not always buy quality, you need to do enough research to figure out where not to save money, but make a point of saving money everywhere else. All those other little costs add up--it's not just $30 every 5-10 years. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mcstealth Posted October 25, 2018 Report Share Posted October 25, 2018 4 hours ago, Lukon said: She’s in LaMesa. I’ve been flying her all week and harassing the local mechanics. Sort of had to do my own pre-buy as money is running short (I know...) Weather is rainy, low ceilings last day or two. May Checkout in her tomorrow, add a couple charge points for my iPad and Stratux and fly her home at the end of the week... I am with Lance. Be wary. Is that the plane the widow was selling? I called on it. I didn't go look at it but I wanted to. Pretty sure it was LeMesa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lukon Posted October 25, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2018 11 hours ago, Mcstealth said: I am with Lance. Be wary. Is that the plane the widow was selling? I called on it. I didn't go look at it but I wanted to. Pretty sure it was LeMesa. No widow involved here. The plane has been flying great all week, and hasn’t used any oil. Straight and true hands free. The guy’s like me in that money is tight for him. The plane has lived in the desert most of its life, and there is no corrosion. The guy’s pretty meticulous about wiping the plane down every time he puts it away, and he’s that way with his other stuff too. The prop weeps a little oil or grease after a couple hours flight - less than a tablespoon on each blade. Is that a concern? i was initially disappointed in the appearance of the plane, but the more I dug into the plane, the better it looked to me. I got a couple of pre-buys on planes I was looking at before I saw them, and felt the money (a lot) was wasted. I would have rejected those planes out of hand as soon as I saw them, and they were niggling about bolts being different, though in spec. i know I’m taking a bit of a risk, but sometimes that’s the only way forward... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LANCECASPER Posted October 25, 2018 Report Share Posted October 25, 2018 5 hours ago, Lukon said: No widow involved here. The plane has been flying great all week, and hasn’t used any oil. Straight and true hands free. The guy’s like me in that money is tight for him. The plane has lived in the desert most of its life, and there is no corrosion. The guy’s pretty meticulous about wiping the plane down every time he puts it away, and he’s that way with his other stuff too. The prop weeps a little oil or grease after a couple hours flight - less than a tablespoon on each blade. Is that a concern? i was initially disappointed in the appearance of the plane, but the more I dug into the plane, the better it looked to me. I got a couple of pre-buys on planes I was looking at before I saw them, and felt the money (a lot) was wasted. I would have rejected those planes out of hand as soon as I saw them, and they were niggling about bolts being different, though in spec. i know I’m taking a bit of a risk, but sometimes that’s the only way forward... Only a detailed inspection shows whether there is corrosion. That requires removing the interior. It also involves knowing which inspection panels to remove and inspect for corrosion. You need lights and a mirror to see some of the areas prone to corrosion. Several of the older Mooneys have been scrapped in the past few years because hidden corrosion had gone too far before it was noticed. The prop is an airworthiness concern. However, I doubt that it's close to a tablespoon per blade. A tablespoon of oil would completely cover the blade. I wouldn't risk having a prop governor failure on the return trip home without a professional opinion. I have always looked over the airplane first and then if I like it, send it to pre-buy. I use a credit card with air miles so I could use miles to go see an airplane without delay. I have always had someone lined up in advance close to the airplane so if I like it then I can get it into an immediate pre-buy. the reason I like to get charged by the hour on the pre-buy is that at any point in the pre-buy I can say either look some more, forget this one or let's turn it into an annual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted October 25, 2018 Report Share Posted October 25, 2018 Putting things in context or perspective... 1) Tablespoon of grease leaking out... that will stop on it’s own, because there aren’t many tablespoons of grease in there... Some bits of grease can escape the seals after the annual and grease has been put in the prop... you can see the spread of a few bits up the cowling and on the windshield... Lots of grease, the prop may need new seals... 2) or is that oil...? You are going to want to gain the skills required to tell the difference... oil leaking on the prop comes from a different seal... Oil and grease leaks are not normal every day activities... most have simple solutions when you know what the problem is. Finding out the small oil leak comes from a cracked case or leaky case seal, is best done prior to ownership... A tablespoon of oil... would be dripping off the tail tie down... after covering much of the belly. 3) Planes that live in the desert are susceptible to corrosion too... because mice and children seem to take up residency in all planes... There are many ways to justify not getting a PPI... but none will make sense after the purchase... Do the best you can with what you have... Don’t just roll the dice... 3) When the plane costs as much as your house... spend a lot on your ppi... When the plane costs as much as your car, adjust the amount you spend on the PPI 4) When I got my M20C the budget was limited to going to a local mechanic removing panels and checking compressions... This came after my first PPI failed to start... My mechanic pointed out some bent things and missing and broken rivets... That ended my piper experience... before it got started... turns out... that owner needed some flying lessons... 5) When the plane is free... expect to pay about 60amu updating and OHing things... Buying a plane from somebody that doesn’t have funds... expect lots of deferred maintenance... 6) it is better to find these details in the ppi than waiting until the first annual... 7) there is a proper order to things... PPIs are expensive, don’t start down that road until you have seen the plane yourself... 8) not all ppis get finished... Start with the expensive and quick things to check first... 9) to get a feel for what owning a Mooney is like on a constrained budget... find Alex, he has written a lot over the last few years... it has taken up a lot of time and effort in place of money... 10) find what works for you, but avoid the things that didn’t work for many others... Protect your wallet... (that’s what the ppi is for...) Avoid buying things that would accidentally require OH of the engine, or replacing structural components... it helps to keep both eyes open, the whole way... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylw314 Posted October 25, 2018 Report Share Posted October 25, 2018 7 hours ago, Lukon said: No widow involved here. The plane has been flying great all week, and hasn’t used any oil. Straight and true hands free. The guy’s like me in that money is tight for him. The plane has lived in the desert most of its life, and there is no corrosion. The guy’s pretty meticulous about wiping the plane down every time he puts it away, and he’s that way with his other stuff too. The prop weeps a little oil or grease after a couple hours flight - less than a tablespoon on each blade. Is that a concern? i was initially disappointed in the appearance of the plane, but the more I dug into the plane, the better it looked to me. I got a couple of pre-buys on planes I was looking at before I saw them, and felt the money (a lot) was wasted. I would have rejected those planes out of hand as soon as I saw them, and they were niggling about bolts being different, though in spec. i know I’m taking a bit of a risk, but sometimes that’s the only way forward... Mirroring the comments above, it's hard to imagine the prop is weeping close to a tablespoon. If it just needs wiping down (as opposed to a bucket underneath it), it's probably half a teaspoon. Is it a McCauley or Hartzell prop? What I discovered was the Hartzells are greased every 100 hours, but McCauleys cannot be greased until overhaul. So if it's a McCauley prop, and the leaking is regular, this is almost certainly oil and not grease, since there is a finite amount of grease in the hub. If it's a Hartzell right after annual, you might simply be catching some excess grease leaking out. Unless you have seen grease vs oil on a prop blade, it's hard to tell, so you might ask a mechanic. IIRC, the oil in the hub is dyed red, so when it starts leaking oil it should be obvious. However, if it's been leaking oil for a while, then it just starts looking like normal motor oil. My guess is that it's been leaking for a while. When was the last prop IRAN or overhaul? it's possible the hub just needs to be resealed ("cheap"). It's probable the hub needs to be repaired and resealed (not so cheap). It's possible the prop needs to be overhauled (not cheap). If you're unlucky like me, the prop needs to be replaced (expen$ive). Unfortunately, any work needs to be done at a prop shop, which makes even "cheap" highly unpleasant. My understanding is that if the hub is leaking oil, it's not a safety-of-flight issue, but the leak will predictably worsen to the point it is unbearable (e.g. windshield misted with oil every flight), so it's a cost that you have to factor in and prepare for. You might not need to do it for a couple years, or you might need to do it next week. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mcstealth Posted October 25, 2018 Report Share Posted October 25, 2018 7 hours ago, Lukon said: No widow involved here. The plane has been flying great all week, and hasn’t used any oil. Straight and true hands free. The guy’s like me in that money is tight for him. The plane has lived in the desert most of its life, and there is no corrosion. The guy’s pretty meticulous about wiping the plane down every time he puts it away, and he’s that way with his other stuff too. The prop weeps a little oil or grease after a couple hours flight - less than a tablespoon on each blade. Is that a concern? i was initially disappointed in the appearance of the plane, but the more I dug into the plane, the better it looked to me. I got a couple of pre-buys on planes I was looking at before I saw them, and felt the money (a lot) was wasted. I would have rejected those planes out of hand as soon as I saw them, and they were niggling about bolts being different, though in spec. i know I’m taking a bit of a risk, but sometimes that’s the only way forward... At least check with the guys at Floris Aviation at the Midland Air Park. He is @cl65fo here on the site. Don't know how active he is here on Mooneyspace. They Rent out a nice O so I assume they know their Mooney stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mcstealth Posted October 25, 2018 Report Share Posted October 25, 2018 Here is their link http://www.florisflightservices.com/home.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lukon Posted October 26, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2018 (edited) Prop is squared away. It was grease, and not much at that. Probably a quarter teaspoon. Yes it’s a Hartzell, recently overhauled. Wiped it off, and none after flying it three hours today. I’ve done the pre-buy thing. I see the value in it. I feel good about my decision this time around. Wish me luck as a new Mooney owner. I’ve been flying the plane all week. I’ve gotten to know the plane and all the people who’ve touched it the past couple of years. I’ve rejected several planes up to this point, so it’s not like I’d jump at something when I had reservations. Edited October 26, 2018 by Lukon 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted October 26, 2018 Report Share Posted October 26, 2018 Check the back of the wheel wells, pull the rear underside panel near the wing root at the back of the wing. Pull the rear seat and pull the covers off and take lots of pics with the cell phone. pull the carpet below the rear seat. lift up gently on the tail and see how much play is there. Borescope behind the side panels. The steel tubing should be painted with epoxy paint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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