logbooks for annual

[gsxrpilot]

2 hours ago, RLCarter said:

It amazes me that some of you trust your Maintenance Shop or A&P/IA to do Repairs, Preventative Maintenance or Alterations on your Aircraft but don’t trust them with the Maintenance Records (Log Books). I understand that should the records be lost that the value of your aircraft was just reduced and that is why I keep a photo copy of the log books, it is for my benefit and the only time an A&P/IA would see them is if the Original needed to be reconstructed.

It's not a matter of trust, it's a matter of risk management. If work can be done without the shop having the original log books, than why take the extra risk, no matter how small, and leave the original logs with the shop. Accidents happen that are no fault of the shop, but they still happen. So why add additional responsibility to the shop, needlessly. 

[Danb]

On 3/10/2018 at 10:29 AM, acpartswhse said:

at one time there was a shop.  Dawn Aviation in the Wilmington Del area that kept logs from every plane they worked on.  I bought a 65 C from a Lady there and resold it as is where to a friend of Dawn.  They offered to make him copies for $500 but even to him they would not release the original logs.  Years later i bought the same plane from a man in NC and the only logbook entry was the one I made saying Dawn kept the logs.  It is now in the parts place here.  When dawn went under there were a few hundred sets of logs sold as part of the auction.  I didnt know until too late or i would have retired on lost logs.   JP.

Dawn had a lot of issues, logs not being one of the worse. the FBO that replaced them are still going strong. It’s an easy decision if you don’t work on my plane with copied logs,I  go elsewhere. Another shop in Wilm could not find my logs years ago, after a few months I went through there files and found them in a file for a piper, last time my originals were out of my custody and control.

[RobertGary1]

My IA friend created a separate log folder for my ADs so you don’t have to dig through logs trying to find when each one was last done. I’d expect that would be all a shop would need if I ever dropped it off for an annual. 

-Robert 

[DXB]

I suspect copies should be fine for the IA to review.  However the IA - owner relationship has enough potential pitfalls.  I'd suggest not stressing it unnecessarily on this issue!!

[Andy95W]

It really comes down to trust between the two parties, doesn't it?

I have two examples of ADs on vintage Mooneys that describe how I (and perhaps other IAs) might feel.

-Aileron link reinforcement AD: I can look at that one myself to ensure compliance, so no problem

-Control shaft cracking AD every 500 hours: I will want to see the actual logbook entry, from your actual logbook, not a XEROX or a PDF that could be from someone else's logbook, or I will feel the need to do the inspection again, myself.

I would have no problem if the owner wanted to maintain possession of the logbooks in his hands and show the entries to me, but I'm going to want to see actual ink signatures, not copies.

If you don't trust me to not "hold your airplane hostage", then I won't trust you to show me someone else's logbook copies.

[RobertGary1]

1 hour ago, Andy95W said:

 

If you don't trust me to not "hold your airplane hostage", then I won't trust you to show me someone else's logbook copies.

So what do you do about those of us who don't put ADs in our "logbook" but have our AD's cleanly organized in an AD folder for quicker access? More and more are doing this, I think the A&P school is teaching that way now.

-Robert

[Andy95W]

6 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

So what do you do about those of us who don't put ADs in our "logbook" but have our AD's cleanly organized in an AD folder for quicker access? More and more are doing this, I think the A&P school is teaching that way now.

-Robert

The AD log shows the status of the ADs for the airplane.  It is not the logbook entry that shows that the work was completed.  If the A&P who did the inspection did not annotate it properly in the logbook I would make the assumption that he was either sloppy or lazy.  Putting it in both places is the best method in order to have a record for AD compliance.

Regardless, I would want to see a maintenance entry, with signature and A&P number, in ink, describing the work that was accomplished.  Whatever document that was contained in must also have your aircraft registration number and the tach time.

My point was about the trust between the two parties.  Why is the IA expected to trust that the owner didn't falsely copy a logbook when the owner won't trust the IA with the maintenance records of the airplane?  The IA stands to lose his license, business, and career by blindly trusting an unscrupulous owner.

[Hank]

24 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

So what do you do about those of us who don't put ADs in our "logbook" but have our AD's cleanly organized in an AD folder for quicker access? More and more are doing this, I think the A&P school is teaching that way now.

-Robert

My AD Compliance spreadsheet is printed out, with a signature for each one indicating either "N/A" or the date it was completed. Each new IA makes a new one, since apparently they don't trust the previous IA, either . . . . .

[EricJ]

4 minutes ago, Hank said:

My AD Compliance spreadsheet is printed out, with a signature for each one indicating either "N/A" or the date it was completed. Each new IA makes a new one, since apparently they don't trust the previous IA, either . . . . .

This is the frustrating part for me.   No two IAs seem to have the same opinion on "how it must be done".   The electronic tracking systems are great, but not all IAs have or use them.   Last year the IA produced a very nice, printed catalog of the entire history of the airplane, which is awesome.   However, that was in a different state and any subsequent IA may not have access to the same electronic records, or even want to use them, so at some point in the future I may wind up paying to have the whole thing reproduced again, just to get continuity with the electronic copy.

 

[RobertGary1]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

My AD Compliance spreadsheet is printed out, with a signature for each one indicating either "N/A" or the date it was completed. Each new IA makes a new one, since apparently they don't trust the previous IA, either . . . . .

For me as well. You don't find AD's signed off in my "logbook" at all. All the signatures are in the AD booklet with tab'd sections for engine, airframe, avionics, prop, etc. That meets the FAA requirements for ADs. It is amazingly faster to find AD compliance with this approach vs reading back 30 years at each annual trying to decipher hand written entries from the 80's.

I think part of the driver for this is that is what some of the AD search software is doing. So the IA just hits the print button and then signs each line.

-Robert

Edited March 12, 2018 by RobertGary1

[Andy95W]

1 hour ago, RobertGary1 said:

You don't find AD's signed off in my "logbook" at all. 

Depending on the AD, this is highly unlikely.  

Let's look at one that applies to your M20F:  98-24-11, Aileron Control Link weld.  This is a recurring AD that can be terminated by welding gussets into the link.  Most have been modified, so yours probably have been as well.  I guarantee that if yours have been modified, there will be a logbook entry showing that approved, modified links have been installed and the AD now no longer applies.  This is an example of an AD that is easily checked, since the modified links are readily apparent with the belly panels off, which would occur during every Annual inspection. 

Now let's look at one that might apply to your airplane, if you have O&N fuel bladders, AD 2004-25-04.  This AD requires that foam wedges be installed under the bladders.  How do I, as your inspector this year, determine that these wedges have been installed?  I guarantee there will be a logbook entry if they have been, and last year's IA probably signed off your AD log.  Am I supposed to trust him and blindly sign off your AD log again?  HELL NO!  I am going to either check inside your fuel tanks myself, or I will check your logbooks to see that there is an entry, with signature, saying that they were installed properly.

In the case of those foam wedges, you can either show me the sign off in your logbook or you can pay me to look inside your fuel tanks.  And no, showing me a xerox of a logbook page or a digital picture or a PDF doesn't cut it, unless I've known you for a while.  Again, it comes back to trust on the part of BOTH parties.

[Danb]

Andy with all due respect it has nothing to do with trusting the A&P,  mine was lost by a friend,a respected A&P, things happen. If you must see the original I have no issues showing them while I wait for them. A multitude of things could occur even in the owners possession. There’s no reason to get defensive for us protecting a valuable asset, nothing personal is intended. 

[Andy95W]

3 minutes ago, Danb said:

Andy with all due respect it has nothing to do with trusting the A&P,  mine was lost by a friend,a respected A&P, things happen. If you must see the original I have no issues showing them while I wait for them. A multitude of things could occur even in the owners possession. There’s no reason to get defensive for us protecting a valuable asset, nothing personal is intended. 

I agree completely!  That is why I said 4 hours ago the following:

 

4 hours ago, Andy95W said:

 

I would have no problem if the owner wanted to maintain possession of the logbooks in his hands and show the entries to me, but I'm going to want to see actual ink signatures, not copies.

My only defensiveness is that everyone only seem to be talking about what they have to lose, and that the IA should trust them.  Very few are talking about what the IA has to lose if he is dealing with an untrustworthy owner.

And for me personally, I don't want to hold anybody's logbooks longer than the time I need to check the few entries I need to see.  And I would much rather tell the owner what I need to check and have them look them up, not me.  That way I wouldn't even need to touch the logbooks and I'd save a lot of time.

[Hank]

All ADS don't have logbook signoffs, like the one we all did within 10 flight hours in 2012(?), looking for a backwards tail hinge joint. It's correct on my plane, what do you write and sign in the logbook? Surely the signed AD log should suffice, or if I move again and use you, are you gonna charge me to check it again? And how about engine ADs where you need to check installed parts? You gonna charge me for a teardown when it's already signed off as being in compliance? Or do I need to find the receipt when the work was performed two owners ago and hope it shows part and serial numbers?

At some point, this becomes ridiculous, and further pursuit makes it stupid . . . .

[RobertGary1]

52 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

Depending on the AD, this is highly unlikely.  

Let's look at one that applies to your M20F:  98-24-11, Aileron Control Link weld.  This is a recurring AD that can be terminated by welding gussets into the link.  Most have been modified, so yours probably have been as well.  I guarantee that if yours have been modified, there will be a logbook entry showing that approved, modified links have been installed and the AD now no longer applies.  This is an example of an AD that is easily checked, since the modified links are readily apparent with the belly panels off, which would occur during every Annual inspection. 

Now let's look at one that might apply to your airplane, if you have O&N fuel bladders, AD 2004-25-04.  This AD requires that foam wedges be installed under the bladders.  How do I, as your inspector this year, determine that these wedges have been installed?  I guarantee there will be a logbook entry if they have been, and last year's IA probably signed off your AD log.  Am I supposed to trust him and blindly sign off your AD log again?  HELL NO!  I am going to either check inside your fuel tanks myself, or I will check your logbooks to see that there is an entry, with signature, saying that they were installed properly.

In the case of those foam wedges, you can either show me the sign off in your logbook or you can pay me to look inside your fuel tanks.  And no, showing me a xerox of a logbook page or a digital picture or a PDF doesn't cut it, unless I've known you for a while.  Again, it comes back to trust on the part of BOTH parties.

I can show you the AD book that says the AD has been complied with and signed by the IA. There is no legal distinction between an AD sign off in a "logbook" vs one in a AD booklet. There is no reason to pay the next IA hours to dig through decades of oil change entries looking for each AD.

-Robert

Edited March 12, 2018 by RobertGary1

[jetdriven]

There’s no requirement for a logbook at all. Just aircraft records. A binder with entries is legal, such  as ADLog. Just the Avery label paper clipped to the invoice is also a maintenance record. 

[RobertGary1]

6 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

There’s no requirement for a logbook at all. Just aircraft records. A binder with entries is legal, such  as ADLog. Just the Avery label paper clipped to the invoice is also a maintenance record. 

That's true. If you show the IA AD compliance and he says he must see the logbooks you can just tell him they were lost in a fire. Then youre golden.

 

-Robert

Edited March 12, 2018 by RobertGary1

[Andy95W]

 

58 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

That's true. If you show the IA AD compliance and he says he must see the logbooks you can just tell him they were lost in a fire. Then youre golden.

 

-Robert

I suppose lying to your IA is a good thing, so long as you get your way and can save a buck?

This is why I do so few annual inspections per year, and then only for good friends that I know and trust.

Others that ask me I invite to take their airplane, and their checkbook, to one of the big shops at the big airport 30 miles away.

[Andy95W]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

are you gonna charge me to check it again? And how about engine ADs where you need to check installed parts? You gonna charge me for a teardown when it's already signed off as being in compliance? Or do I need to find the receipt when the work was performed two owners ago and hope it shows part and serial numbers?

At some point, this becomes ridiculous, and further pursuit makes it stupid . . . .

Of course not, Hank. I would expect us to talk about it and come up with a course of action, together, that made us both feel comfortable with the outcome. 

[RobertGary1]

3 hours ago, Andy95W said:

 

I suppose lying to your IA is a good thing, so long as you get your way and can save a buck?

This is why I do so few annual inspections per year, and then only for good friends that I know and trust.

Others that ask me I invite to take their airplane, and their checkbook, to one of the big shops at the big airport 30 miles away.

It was more of a theoretical discussion of the lack of legal reason for an IA to dig through old logbooks so long as ADs are properly documented. The point is that if you lose your logs in a fire you don't need to create each log entry, just show compliance with ADs. 

-Robert

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Andy95W said:

The AD log shows the status of the ADs for the airplane.  It is not the logbook entry that shows that the work was completed.  If the A&P who did the inspection did not annotate it properly in the logbook I would make the assumption that he was either sloppy or lazy.  Putting it in both places is the best method in order to have a record for AD compliance.

Regardless, I would want to see a maintenance entry, with signature and A&P number, in ink, describing the work that was accomplished.  Whatever document that was contained in must also have your aircraft registration number and the tach time.

My point was about the trust between the two parties.  Why is the IA expected to trust that the owner didn't falsely copy a logbook when the owner won't trust the IA with the maintenance records of the airplane?  The IA stands to lose his license, business, and career by blindly trusting an unscrupulous owner.

Along with that trust, there is trust in being paid, that the cheque(check) is on the way and isn’t made of rubber.

Clarence

[RobertGary1]

1 hour ago, M20Doc said:

Along with that trust, there is trust in being paid, that the cheque(check) is on the way and isn’t made of rubber.

Clarence

True but isn’t having the airplane better than the logs?

-Robert

[Hank]

15 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

True but isn’t having the airplane better than the logs?

-Robert

Both is best . . . .

[RLCarter]

AD compliance becomes part of the aircraft's permanent record, IA's are required to verify that all AD's have been complied with, I try and make it as easy on my IA as I can. I have an 8.5 x 11 binder with a master list of ALL the AD's that show up on the FAA's database search, AD's that do not apply (bladders, inflatable door seal, etc..) still get printed but only to the part he can confirm that it is not applicable, AD's that are applicable are printed in full along with any reference material (service letter, bulletin..etc) which is kept in another 8.5 x 11 binder. The master list is in the front of the both books with a compliance list behind that. The compliance list gives the meat & potatoes of what was done and when it needs be to done again with the AD's that do apply, there is also a reference to the Permanent Record or Records (log book). The AD binder has a tabbed section for the Airframe, Powerplant, Prop and Appliances, the reference binder is tabbed for Bulletins, Letters, Instructions etc. I do the majority of my own work and check the FAA's database regularly and a few days before Annual, he has to spend very little time on AD research during the Annual Inspection. Both my Mooney Logs and C-172 logs are in his office which is kept locked unless he is in there, if I need access to them after hours for what ever reason a quick text and he leaves them in his conference room before he locks up to go home (I have keys to his hangar and conference room). So is there a "Trust" issue or do I feel I'm taking unnecessary risks? Nope, not at all.

[RLCarter]

45 minutes ago, Hank said:

Both is best . . . .

A Mechanics Lien trumps everything, the IRS and a county deputy showed up to seize a 4-wheeler I had worked, I told them that I would only release it to them an no one else, just as soon as someone pays the bill. Several years later the Texas Auto Task Force shows up (2 officers) a guy from Oklahoma where the Harley was stolen from, a DPS Trooper (State Police) and a local Police Officer, sent them down the road too, the 5 man team went a got a search warrant, I told that was a waste of time, I've already  showed  you the bike, you knew it was here...pay the bill and you can have it