First Annual Inspection

[N6784N]

The first annual i got was actually the pre buy inspection and like a dummy i got it done by the owners mechanic. the second was done by a descent mechanic but i realixed after he was done and talking that he maybe didnt have enough mooney experience. its costs 2000.00 at freeway just to do the inspection which doesnt include any actual work. when i took the plane to freeway here is the list of issues. the issues in astricts can be deffered but i did get some done just for my own comfort. this year i expect about 10k to finsih up the squaks and make the plane alot better.

 

 

Labor Breakdown

N6784N

Airframe

1. Manifold pressure line B-nut Ferrell cracked

2. Check manifold pressure line for vent hole

*3. Engine sags

4. Paper work for volt. reg. and over volt relay

*5. Oil pressure switch/wires

*6. Wire going to overvolt unit

7. No dump over hose for heat box

8. Dipstick tube loose

9. Induction boot has holes and no clamp

10. No drain hose on carb heat box

11. Carb heat box worn thru and cracked

12. Carb heat box valve / bearings worn / shaft

13. Cowl flap control catches and hits fuel pressure line

14. Crankcase breather tube held on w/ heat shrink

15. Fuel hose @ firewall, 90 degree elbow loose thru firewall

16. Oil hoses “91”

17. Fuel hoses “81”

18. Oil cooler hose routing and position of cooler?

*19. Carb halfs leaking / check age

20. Landing light retainer missing screws

*21. Landing light housing repaired / worn thru

22. Baffle seal upper fwd (worn)

23. Cowl oil cooler mount cracked

24. Alt. Install is it correct / approved

25. Clamp around muffler shroud

*26. Throttle control old style connection @ carb.

*27. Rusty screws thru-out aircraft

*28. Cabin door seal flat

*29. Wrong fuel cap left tank

30. Left fuel cap rusty and low tension

31. Left fuel plate filler neck corroded

32. Fuel tank placards (right missing, left torn)

33. Improper fuel drains / some stainage also

34. Dust boots gone

35. Nose gear door rod ends worn lower R/H only

36. Nose gear pivot truss worn out

37. Nose gear leg (mid) worn out

38. Nose gear retract link worn out

39. Nose gear steering horn worn

40. Nose wheel bearings feel worn

41. Nose tire valve stem wrong side

42. Electric fuel pump drain not coming thru plate

43. Nose well not taped

44. Repair in flap well?

*45. Left gear door rod ends worn

46. Prop control gets tight at end of travel

47. Prop control routing @ engine

*48. Both seat backs broken

*49. Right Nav. reflector broken

50. Vent window decal missing

51. Vent window seal (missing part)

*52. Tack bouncy and wrong markings

*53. Rt. brake pedal has more initial travel

*54. Cowl flaps won’t close

55. Compass dry

56. No cabin door decal

57. Ops decal?

58. Flap and trim indicator decal torn

*59. Interior door pulls

60. Check P.C. system ops

61. Pilots yoke loose on shaft

*62. Windshield has some slight crazing

63. Left nav. inop

*64. Aft rudder bellcrank worn

*65. Aft elevator bellcrank has side to side movement

*66. Play @ elevator tri connection (rod ends / bolt)

67. Check elevator travel

68. Some play @ trim link - measure

*69. Small area’s of corrosion under paint thru out

*70. Tail pivot has some movement and noises

*71. Trim link boot deteriorated

*72. Belly strobe paperwork

73. Aft rudder P.C. Boot oring and tape no good

74. Measure trim tube at aft guide block

75. Elt. check / improper screws for cover / housing damaged

76. Elt. tywrapped to mount

*77. Horizontal stabilizer seals deteriorating

*78. Top cowl batter access door hinge worn / broken

*79. Rt. aileron outer rod end has some play

*80. Rt. aileron outer rod has some rust

*81. Wings have light corrosion – ACF 50

82. Debris in wing @ outer gear doors

*83. Left wing lower outer fuel plate has a leak

*84. Right aileron outer rod end has play

*85. Right aileron outer rod end has some rust

*86. Right gear door rod ends have some play

*87. Both main gear trusses have some rust

88. Hat rack decal missing

*89. No baggage door wind lace

*90. Right flap outer trailing edge slight damage

91. Left and right wing inner fairings missing screws

92. Right flap spring spread apart

*93. Flap pump hose has corrosion @ stiff

*94. Left master cylinder installation?

95. Check books for damage repairs Belly/ flap area/ step bulkhead / tail bulkhead

96. Nose gear preload about 50

97. Right main 200/210 left 250/255

*98. Rudder torque tube has some play

99. Cowl flap control mounting

100. Fuel bowl, interior pull drain has been removed, external drain installed

101. Fuel selector placard missing

*102. 70 amp alt. CKT breaker not marked

*103. Aux bus & alt field breaker marking faded/missing

104. Hobbs meter mounting loose and paper work?

105. Defrost scat tubing corroded

106. Pilots yoke aileron rod hits cowl flap and carb heat controls

*107. Cap spar not taped – and has some corrosion

*108. Seat tracks need cleaning

109. Engine gauge CKT Breaker missing mounting screw

110. Co-pilots control hits mixture control

111. Avionics cooling scat deteriorated

112. Inner fuel pressure and oil pressure hoses need replacing

*113. Radio stack has no support

114. 208 bulletin? All side glass not sealed

115. Transponder loose in panel

116. Instrument panel mounts broken

*117. 3 out of 4 overhead vent louvers broken

118. Battery box corroded

*119. Left side panel fabric coming unglued, right panel also

*120. Right fuel transmitter has small leak

*121. Some small areas of rust on fuselage tubes

122. Muffler flame tubes blown

123. Spark plugs fail gap test / gauge

*124. Pitot tube mast misaligned angle

*125. More than 12 yrs since carb. has had service

*126. Engine frame has some rust

127. A few ty wraps on engine frame

128. Oil pressure switch mounting (poor)

129. Mags need retiming

130. Paper work / 337 for damage repairs

131. Outside skin of L/H fwd upper window has holes

*132. Oil quick drain is not approved.

133. Side windows improperly sealed if sealed at all - 208 bulletin.

All * items deferrable

[jetmech1972]

Quote: piperpainter

wow....just wow! I have an experienced Mooney A&P IA. Not he's not a MSC but he does about 10+ Mooneys a year oh...and his own! Very good mechanic and his shop rate is great. I called a MSC shop in CA about something and asked the shop rate... It was $105 an hour...I hung up the phone. I don't think anyone is worth that much, thats rediculous. Maybe thats how ya'll are seeing such expensive annuals.

[scottfromiowa]

Thanks Jeff.  That's extensive.  Don't despair a lot of the items are inspection and "defer".  Your plane looks like it was getting minimal TLC for years like mine.  How many hours on engine/airframe?  Hours since Major?  (Engine/Prop) When was last major completed?  Mine had low hours and was flown (single owner) a bunch in first 15 years, but then sat and was paper annualed for next 15 years.  Engine wasn't majored and had 1800 hours...I learned a lot the HARD way.  If you bought "right" then the maintenance should not be a surprise...like mine was.  Enjoy the journey and ask a lot of questions UP FRONT...

[Seth]

Jeff-

That is quite a detailed list.  The MSC at Freeway (W00) has taken care of my Mooney since I purchased her, and took care of her for the 20+ years before that through two owners.  Though some work has been completely elsewhere, Freeway knows the airplane well and I trust them with 9567M.  The years of experience that Tommy, Bruce, and the others have will match up wtih any MSC (except maybe the factory in Kerville).  Also, FYI - Mike is no longer at Freeway (just as of a few weeks ago). 

Over my first three annuals (this past one just completed), I'm not yet at $20k, but I'm pretty close at this point.  Feel free to PM me for specific details to work completed.  Only two items were for a panel upgrade/repairs - the oil temperature indicator had to be overhauled soon after purchase (10 hours into ownership), and just recently a new digital Tachometer when mine stopped working.  I do plan to install a 430 waas at some point.

Safe flying,

-Seth

[1964-M20E]

I’m going through my first owner assisted annual since I purchased my 64 M20E in May of last year.  I’m basically turning all the wrenches and the mechanic is supervising and doing some.  I’m hoping to get out of there for under $6k but it will be close.  Unfortunately new exhaust and fuel pump bumped up the cost significantly two items I was not counting on.

Combine that with some other medium to minor items and it adds up quickly.

I’m ready to stop the bleeding and go flying.

I’d be cheaper to rent but you cannot rent any complex aircraft around here.  I'll just have to fly more next year to spread out the cost per hour.

 

 

 

 

[thinwing]

wow...over a hundred items...with that big a list  if it were my bird I would be going through the items i could legally do my self...replace all the missing placards and decals,replace both oil and fuel lines due to 30 year age(this sounds major but replacing prefabricated fuel/oil lines a pvt pilot can do)Gap and install spark plugs,any time shop mentioned rust or corrosion...clean it up and corroision protect your self,any missing or rusty screws ,replace them your self,obtain the correct fuel cap and install,pull up missing 337s yourself...they should be filed with the feds....dont worry about engine mounts,...get that when you overhaul engine unless really bad...looking at this list,the msc should be doing what they do best....preloads on ldging gear,rigging,and flight controls...my 2 cents..kpc

[carusoam]

"I'll just have to fly more next year to spread out the cost per hour."  1964-M20E

My kind of thinking.....

-a-

[OR75]

I was wondering if you had a pre-buy inspection done and what it came up with ?

 

[FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC]

My bird had a pre-buy inspection at Daytona Aircraft Services, a Mooney Service Center, last year.  It apparently passed with flying colors and nothing of concern came up.  I then took the plane to Don Maxwell, for this year's annual....  Let's just say my annual this year is not going to be a cheap one.

 

Now I like Jim Teski and his crew at Daytona Aircraft, don’t get me wrong.  What I'm getting at is that it's always good to have a second separate person and/or shop take a look at the plane from year to year in my opinion.

 

Now I know some of you all are going to start to beat me up over this; however, I would be very suspect if I were to purchase a 30 year old plane (mine is a 1982 M20K 231) and all I saw in the log books or on the receipts were those 2,000 annuals that never really cost anything.

 

[OR75]

The approach of changing shop for the annual is a good one and that's actually what I do. (owners assist, average shop and MSC).

But how can you explain the discrepancy between your prebuy and your annual ?

 

  

 

[FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC]

I think that comparing a pre-buy to an annual is like comparing apples to oranges. Here is why I say that. No matter where you bring your Mooney for an Annual we all know that the reg's require at least a mimimal amout of items be checked i.e. check compressions, swing the gear, AD's up to date, etc, etc... Now a pre-buy is really left up to the mechanic that's doing it. There are just too many variables invovled with it to compare it to an annual

 

In any event some of my bigger ticket items this year...

 

Hot prop brushes $380.00 w/labor....not discovered at pre-buy

Walen flash tube $200.00 w/labor...not discovered at pre-buy

Aircraft rigging $400.00 w/labor...not discovered at pre-buy

Fuel pump leaking at throtle shaft $1000 w/labor...was it leaking at pre-buy? Who knows

Engine Baffling $300 w/labor....not discovered at pre-buy

Corrosion X $300...I live in FL...enough said on that!

 

...and a whole host of other things that cost 80 bucks here and 120 bucks there like missing extrior placards(stickers). It all adds up when you take into account the initial annual expense as well. Take the baffling for example Maxwell says it's in need of repair another mechanic might look at it and say it's good to go. Who really knows? Not me, I just fly the damn thing! It's just one of those things, I dont want to find myself at FL 180 with an overheating engine so i would never take a pass on anything he says I need. I'm not smart enough about engines to question something he says I need.

From a mechanical and astethical viewpoint I will put my K up against any Mooney out there. It had great mx history at Daytona aircraft service and I will continue with that and try to improve upon it. I flew my plane half way across the country because you all said maxwell was one of the best. I think that shows my commitment to my desire to fly a safe and well maintained aircraft. I just scratch my head when i read that people are coming out year after year with annuals under 2K?

[John Pleisse]

Mooneys, Bonanzas? Ya gotta find one that won't ding you on high ticket items when purchasing, then stay on top of things. Plan on paying less than $3500 for an annual? Buy something else. A typical annual, "Pass GO" and plan on $4500 or more a year.

My logbook has 11 of the last 13 annuals done by reputable Mooney Service Centers. This works. You put gas and oil in your plane and you go fly for a year squawk free.

[Paul]

Okay fellow owners let's not make this a contest on how much we paid as a result of inadaquate prepurchase inspections.  I for one am still upset that the first annual two years ago was a lesson in personal finacial management.

All that I can ask of all fellow owners is, TAKE CARE OF YOUR AIRCRAFT.  We are the caretakers for all future owners. I for one thought the previous owner and mechanic knew what they were doing,(Wrong) .  I hope as with all future mooney owners not to screw the next guy with inadaquate maintenance. 

The guys at Webers( MSC) have been sincere in which items can be defered vs must items. Would you take your Lamoborghini to the ford dealer?.....no. 

231HY may not be beautiful, but my continued investment gives me the comfort that when my family flies with me I know she will take me where I ask.  Yes, there are a few items which still need addressed that the previous owner neglected or removed such as glareshield lights (Why), Fourth person O2 connection missing(Why)  530W.....new interior......Okay, but she is fast and efficient

[N6784N]

I think my biggest issue when buying the mooney was i went through the original owners mechanic to do the pre buy which was a HUGE!! mistake. ofcourse the guy is gonna say its in good shape if his buddy is selling it. so i learned a lesson there. after the second annual i had a deep inclination that not all is correct on the airplane so thats when i called freeway and they told me flat out that if i bring it to them then i can expect 15k to 20k but whatever i own it now and have to keep it safe for the family and friends but also because i want to take care of it. im not bitter or mad at all about it. the prvious owner didnt take care of this gem but now i can and will. i think freeway is a heck of a shop and although i think its right to change up shops every once in awhile i think ill stick with freeway for the most part. its ashame to hear about mike he was a cool cat when i talked to him. i think its going to be a given with a 2000.00 annual inspection before repairs i can assume it will cost me between 3500 and 4500 after i get all the issues taken care of.

[scottfromiowa]

O.K., Now I understand what is wrong here...Modern Mooney Discussion...My bad.  I shall return to the vintage area where annual CAN and SHOULD be between 2,500 & 3,000 (30hours x .7AMU/hour=2,100).  You J,K, Bravo, Ovation guys and gals fly high and more complex=more $.  For those that say the only place to get a quality Annual is at a Mooney Service Center I just don't agree.  Just find an A&P that knows Mooney's and isn't learning on yours...and fix it when it breaks...

[John Pleisse]

That's just it....don't fix it when it breaks. Fix it BEFORE it breaks.

A Mooney Service Center Annual is the way to go at least every few years because nobody knows them better and you have accountablility. It's simply the best manitenance bet and value..... This couldn't be more important for vintage Mooneys. If you expect to find maintenance comensurate to purchase price, you have miscalulated.

It is the difference between somebody who knows them and somebody who has spent an entire life time working on Mooneys and only Mooneys.

We all owe it to each other to maintain the fleet and it's safety record. We also owe our patronage to the people who know Mooneys better than anyone. Pay now or pay later.

[OR75]

I am curious to know what inspection/maintenance  items are fundamentaly different from plane to plane and require specific knowledge and tools.

I am far from being an expert but want to start listing a few:

- landing gear actuator

- trim tab rigging

- landing gear front wheel

 

The only one we would probably all agree on is the ability of the mechnic to cope with the sexy look of a Mooney  

[flight2000]

Quote: N4352H

That's just it....don't fix it when it breaks. Fix it BEFORE it breaks.

A Mooney Service Center Annual is the way to go at least every few years because nobody knows them better and you have accountablility. It's simply the best manitenance bet and value..... This couldn't be more important for vintage Mooneys. If you expect to find maintenance comensurate to purchase price, you have miscalulated.

It is the difference between somebody who knows them and somebody who has spent an entire life time working on Mooneys and only Mooneys.

We all owe it to each other to maintain the fleet and it's safety record. We also owe our patronage to the people who know Mooneys better than anyone. Pay now or pay later.

[carusoam]

Brian bowed out, so I am in....

Soap box under my feet, here I go.......

 

MSC pre-purchase is about about one thing: It is a one time, risk management, effort.  I used one on my most recent Mooney purchase.

[1] Any used equipment purchase has risk that the equipment may have a deficiency.  (new equipment has risk, but often comes with warranties)

[2] The purchaser wants to minimize this risk, because he gets stuck paying for any unknown deficiency.

[3] Employing a mechanic that knows mooneys is the most reliable way to identify unknown deficiencies.

[4] MSCs are loaded with mechanics that know mooneys, and are not hard to find.  (they advertise in MAPA)

[5] MSCs as are an entity that are larger than the sum of their parts.  People will recognize / value the MSC signature in your logbook no matter which qualified mechanic in their organization performs the work.

[6] This method allows you to feel comfortable that you have selected a good way to minimize risk.  Unfortunately it does not eliminate unknown risk altogether.

Things to avoid:

[1] Using the same source for ppi as the source of previous annuals or the sales agent.  This is a bad business practice.  It is not a matter of trust or quality of the person in the logbook.  This becomes a source for unnecessary distrust if they were to honestly miss something.  A second opinion is often appreciated.

[2] Using a mechanic that is not familiar with mooneys.  Anything they miss will be your expense.  Mooney familiar people know right where to look for expensive things.  (corrosion shows up in different places on different airframes)  I would not use a non-piper expert for a piper ppi either...

Things that do work...

[1] The more you know about mooneys yourself is very powerful.

[2] Employ a mechanic that is expert in your model mooney (education does not need to be MSC related) this is also very powerful. 

[3] Find or ask for recomendations on mooneyspace.  This will help you avoid unscrupulous individuals and organizations or identify the various U-boats that are for sale.

[4] If you are not an expert at purchasing machines, seek the most professional help that you can afford that matches the scale of what can be missed.

PPIs are like buying insurance.  If everything works as expected you didn't need it in the end.

Best regards,  Kool aide served....,

-a-

[Sabremech]

It seems this topic (MSC or not) comes up from time to time and I have to put my .02 in here. Like previous posters have said, the Mooney is an airplane just like any other and there's nothing magic about it that warrants going only to an MSC. If that's the way you feel and prefer to have your airplane mantained that's fine, but for a vast majority of us there are certainly qualified independant A&P's who do fantastic work. Contrary to what some people post, the best A&P's aren't always at MSC's.

 I'm an A&P/IA and am doing my own maintenance on my Mooney. I purchased the landing gear tools and will be doing my first annual on my airplane since purchasing it last June. The Mooney is a piece of cake compared to some other airplanes I maintain ( F86, A4, L-39, T2, AD-1, T-6, T-28, Stearman, P-51).

 It's OK to take your airplane where you want to, just don't count out the exceptional talent that is out there and doesn't work for an MSC !

[John Pleisse]

Quick story. I hired a great shop to rig my Mooney. I printed the service instruction and gave them an informative MAPA article. They put their "Mooney" guy on it. It turned into a one week fiasco, where they actually drove to the MooneySC to barrow the rigging boards for the job. I have 3 or 4 other stories through 15 years of ownership that are similar. There are great mechanics out there. Some work for dirt, others are overpriced. At the end of the day, my second career will be as an A&P.

This discussion morphed from $35 an hour maintenance and used parts.

[OR75]

At the end, it all boils down to people. 

[Sabremech]

Maybe we should start another thread titled "MSC horror stories". They're not perfect.

[FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC]

I find this discussion extremely interesting so here is my next question to the group concerning this topic...

I have a 1982 M20K 231.  Some might NOT consider that a vintage Mooney but I do.  Someone else indicated that the less "complex" and even older planes (short body I'm assuming) require less maintenance.  I would think the opposite to be true and would opine that the older the aircraft the more maintenance it would require.  So...could anyone with a long body Mooney chime in and give some indication as to how much the average annuals have been on those aircraft?  I would think NEWER should equal less maintenance issues correct?

[scottfromiowa]

Many older "short" and mid-body Mooney's have Manual gear and hydraullic/manual flaps.  Avionics are also often more simplistic.  If an "older" non-turbo aircraft is well maintained the systems are more simplistic with less electrical parts i.e. worm gears, actuators and pneumatic wing leveler vs. three axis auto-pilot.  My cowl flaps are also "manual"...all things considered maintenance on engine, accesories and avionics are often "older" but more simple in function and less likely to malfunction/require recurring maintenance with expense...but they are 40+ year old airframes so if not maintained gear donuts, center truss bushing, vaccum pump, boost pump, ram air seal, scat hose, lights, fuel selector, johnson bar wear out...and or fail and need replacement too.  A lot depends on hours, hangered, flown regularly and fixed when needed...I believe there are posts specific to costs of turbo vs. non-turbo regarding maint/engine costs.