Gear will not retract

[ziggysanchez]

Went out to fly young eagles today. At the end of my third flight had to cycle the gear 3 times to get the gear down. Decided it probably wasn't a good idea to continue flying kids around in my plane after that so I headed home. Couldn't get the gear to retract after taking off. I got no beeping when cycling the gear like when the airspeed switch fails and the override switch didn't bring the gear up. No circuit breakers popped. I did pull the gear circuit breakers with no effect. Checked the emergency gear extension handle latch on the floor and it was closed.

I have never had any issues with the gear prior to this. The taxiway at the airport where we were flying the young eagles was grass and was pretty rough. I wondered if something may have come loose. Looked at the gear and everything seems normal from just looking at it. Any thoughts or ideas of what the issue may be?  My aircraft is a 79 K model.

Edited August 27, 2017 by ziggysanchez

[ArtVandelay]

Maybe the emergency gear extension "sensor", whatever that is has gone bad, and it thinks the latch is not closed. Or you speed/squat switch is bad, although override should have handled that case, but don't think it will override the emergency gear latch.

[StevenL757]

Ziggy, get the airplane up on jacks, connect an external power source and do a few gear swings.  Check both normal and emergency extension methods, and let us know what you find out.  Based on your observations, we can collectively give some helpful guidance.

Steve

[ziggysanchez]

  On 8/27/2017 at 1:37 PM, StevenL757 said:

Ziggy, get the airplane up on jacks, connect an external power source and do a few gear swings.  Check both normal and emergency extension methods, and let us know what you find out.  Based on your observations, we can collectively give some helpful guidance.

Steve

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That's my plan for tomorrow. I will definitely post with the results.

[anthonydesmet]

Ziggy, I think I remember reading a post here (or possibly on MAPA) about a year back about someone having a somewhat similar issue.  The individual stated that he also looked down and saw the emergency gear extension latch was also closed.  However upon investigation he realized that the latch was slightly backed out just resulting in not enough contact to make the airplane think it was engaged.  After he cycled it up and re-latched he did not have an issue other than the need to ohvousoly re-rig the latch so there was no play in it.  My question is, did you cycle the latch or just look down at it?  You may want to try that first because if you say it was a bumpy taxi I can see the latch moving out and up causing the same issue for you especially is the locking mechanism has some play in it.  Just my two cents but this sounds real familiar.

[ziggysanchez]

  On 8/27/2017 at 7:42 PM, anthonydesmet said:

Ziggy, I think I remember reading a post here (or possibly on MAPA) about a year back about someone having a somewhat similar issue.  The individual stated that he also looked down and saw the emergency gear extension latch was also closed.  However upon investigation he realized that the latch was slightly backed out just resulting in not enough contact to make the airplane think it was engaged.  After he cycled it up and re-latched he did not have an issue other than the need to ohvousoly re-rig the latch so there was no play in it.  My question is, did you cycle the latch or just look down at it?  You may want to try that first because if you say it was a bumpy taxi I can see the latch moving out and up causing the same issue for you especially is the locking mechanism has some play in it.  Just my two cents but this sounds real familiar.

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I did cycle it but it's worth looking at more closely. It was a very quick unlatching and latching. I didn't look at it very closely. I'll let you guys know what I observe when I get out there tomorrow.

[carusoam]

Errant post...

-a-

[kortopates]

  On 8/27/2017 at 9:28 AM, teejayevans said:

Maybe the emergency gear extension "sensor", whatever that is has gone bad, and it thinks the latch is not closed. Or you speed/squat switch is bad, although override should have handled that case, but don't think it will override the emergency gear latch.

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  On 8/27/2017 at 7:42 PM, anthonydesmet said:

Ziggy, I think I remember reading a post here (or possibly on MAPA) about a year back about someone having a somewhat similar issue.  The individual stated that he also looked down and saw the emergency gear extension latch was also closed.  However upon investigation he realized that the latch was slightly backed out just resulting in not enough contact to make the airplane think it was engaged.  After he cycled it up and re-latched he did not have an issue other than the need to ohvousoly re-rig the latch so there was no play in it.  My question is, did you cycle the latch or just look down at it?  You may want to try that first because if you say it was a bumpy taxi I can see the latch moving out and up causing the same issue for you especially is the locking mechanism has some play in it.  Just my two cents but this sounds real familiar.

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There actually is no sensor to monitor the emergency gear extension handle. If it is not secured allowing it to engage its going to stop gear retraction by popping the actuator motor circuit breaker. There is also no squat switches on the K. It'll have an airspeed safety switch and if that has failed, then the emergency gear extension red button should be illuminated red and pressing that button will by-pass it and raise the gear. Anyway @ziggysanchez appears to have a very good understanding of his gear system and @StevenL757 suggestion to put the plane on jacks and exercise the gear electrically up and mechanically/manually down is spot on.

I don't don't know what it is, but the OP seems to have ruled out the simple stuff so far. But I would first get under the gear, right after getting it jacks, and it give it look over right away as you may well see the problem or damage before you exercise it. Also if you don't have two people to allow someone to watch it closely as the other raises it, I would move it a little at time pulling the breaker to check on it for signs of trouble to minimize risk of more damage in case you have something binding that was missed in the visual. Its really going to take dropping the belly pan too to give it a full visual inspection before manipulating it but the most likely areas of binding are in the gear wells. Good luck!

  

[anthonydesmet]

  On 8/28/2017 at 3:07 AM, kortopates said:

 

There actually is no sensor to monitor the emergency gear extension handle. If it is not secured allowing it to engage its going to stop gear retraction by popping the actuator motor circuit breaker. There is also no squat switches on the K. It'll have an airspeed safety switch and if that has failed, then the emergency gear extension red button should be illuminated red and pressing that button will by-pass it and raise the gear. Anyway @ziggysanchez appears to have a very good understanding of his gear system and @StevenL757 suggestion to put the plane on jacks and exercise the gear electrically up and mechanically/manually down is spot on.

I don't don't know what it is, but the OP seems to have ruled out the simple stuff so far. But I would first get under the gear, right after getting it jacks, and it give it look over right away as you may well see the problem or damage before you exercise it. Also if you don't have two people to allow someone to watch it closely as the other raises it, I would move it a little at time pulling the breaker to check on it for signs of trouble to minimize risk of more damage in case you have something binding that was missed in the visual. Its really going to take dropping the belly pan too to give it a full visual inspection before manipulating it but the most likely areas of binding are in the gear wells. Good luck!

  

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Copy.  Thanks Kortopates.  I concur and that does make sense.  I just remembered someone having a latch issue is all.

[kortopates]

  On 8/28/2017 at 12:28 PM, anthonydesmet said:

Copy.  Thanks Kortopates.  I concur and that does make sense.  I just remembered someone having a latch issue is all.

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I remembered that post as well. Now I realize I didn't comment on that after your quoting your post. I see I forgot now, but I was intending to add to your comments that IF that was a problem in this case the OP should find the emergency gear extension will not engage from the brass clutch being chewed up and thus the importance of extending it mechanically after raising it electrically.

[ziggysanchez]

I have still been unable to raise the gear. There is definitely no visible damage to the gear or any of it's visible parts. Anyone know of a knowledgable Mooney guy in close proximity to OKC? If not I'll be making a slow flight to Texas tomorrow.

[anthonydesmet]

Ziggy, you probably have already thought of this.  But any chance of keeping it on the jacks and setting up a conference call with Don Maxwell to talk through some troubleshooting with you and your mech before you stiff leg it down?  I have done this with him once before. Just a thought.......

[ziggysanchez]

  On 8/28/2017 at 11:59 PM, anthonydesmet said:

Ziggy, you probably have already thought of this.  But any chance of keeping it on the jacks and setting up a conference call with Don Maxwell to talk through some troubleshooting with you and your mech before you stiff leg it down?  I have done this with him once before. Just a thought.......

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You're right.....I did think of it. Went through that process this morning. I'll be headed to Longview first thing in the morning since we couldn't get it fixed by phone.

[anthonydesmet]

Godspeed!

[ziggysanchez]

Took it to Longview this morning. They found that a wire was broken between the circuit breaker and the relay. A new wire was run and everything is working well. I guess the culprit was tired 37 year old wiring that decided taxiing on rough terrain was too much. I'm glad it was a fairly simple fix.

[carusoam]

Great follow up, Ziggy!

I thought you may have run into the messed up brass gear challenge followed by debter's prison...

Glad to here you back on line so soon.

Best regards,

-a-