Ovation vs. Bravo

[aviatoreb]

7 hours ago, MooneyMitch said:

With regard to Continental cylinders, and with my experience  at my recent overhaul on the IO 550G , I did use new Continental cylinders.

Prior to assembly on the engine, the cylinders were disassembled and valve/valve guide/piston and piston ring fitment were checked and corrected as needed by PowerMasters ( my engine builder).  Standard practice by this builder on TCM cylinders.

This was also done on the previous engine rebuild which I believe contributed to that engine reaching 2400 hours without cylinder work (oh yes, I repeat myself, and not wishing to start a rukus....... the engine was operated LOP its entire life ).

Yup - that's the way - what I was trying to say.  I bet that's one sweet engine.

[M016576]

22 hours ago, donkaye said:

There is no "justifying" anything about airplane ownership or many other things in life you want.  There's also nothing to feel guilty about.  If you can afford it, want it, then get it.

I can get away with saying that because of perspective.  It wasn't too many years ago when I was one of the youngest on the block figuratively speaking.  Now I'm one of the oldest.  So I can truly say I have perspective.  Let me give just a couple of examples of the many I have experienced.  I once bought a house in the best area of the Bay Area where many of the Silicon Valley billionaires live now.  By today's standards I paid nothing practically for it.  I lived in it for a year and started to feel uncomfortable about owing such a big house.  I sold it for a small gain in 1975.  Today that house would go for about 20 million dollars.  Perspective.  But I really learned about perspective over the past 17 years.  On a recommendation from a financial newsletter I put some money in an EFT in the year 2000.  It turns out I had bought it at the high and in short order the technology bubble burst.  I wrote the publisher a nasty letter.  Then I said to myself how much could I lose and be able to sleep at night.  I decided half, so when it went down 10%, I sold half of what I put in.  The balance dropped another 60% and I figured "Well that's the end of that", but I still slept well.  I held on for the next 17 years and about 2 years ago I broke even.  I thought, "Well that's interesting" and let it ride.  It's now up over 120%.  Perspective. (I haven't sent him a thank  you letter yet, although I've been thinking about it).  And finally there is my life's Real Estate Story.  Except to say I tried to talk some of my fellow Engineers into doing what I was starting to do and no one would listen, I'll leave that story for another day.  But there is the most perspective in that one and it allows me to have the magic of flight be such a large part of my life today.

I guess what I"m trying to say is that looking back from my perspective today, the idea of having to think about justifying something that you really want (and can afford) just makes no sense to me now. 

So will it be a Bravo or Ovation?

Your life experiences, and perspectives are, at this point, not in alignment with my own.  I suppose I'm still on the "young" side, and I lack that perspective you speak of.  I hope to meet with the same successes that you have had some day, but until (or if.... big if...) that happens, I will be forced to justify and continuously evaluate the best fit for the mission.  As do many, many aircraft owners.  Imagine general aviation without an affordable, justifiable entry... and we all wonder where the young pilots have gone....

If I'm not flying over 12-14k, paying a premium to own a Bravo does not make a whole lot of sense to me.  That's all.  A beautiful airplane though.  Kind of like owning a Lambo, or Ferrari.  Beautiful, but some owners may just choose to keep them in their garage.  Somewhere a true, passionate driver winces.... but that's capitalism- it's not about how good one is, it's about what one can afford.  And there's nothing to feel guilty about there, either.

Edited June 7, 2017 by M016576

[donkaye, MCFI]

19 minutes ago, M016576 said:

Kind of like owning a Lambo, or Ferrari.  Beautiful, but some owners may just choose to keep them in their garage.  Somewhere a true, passionate driver winces.... but that's capitalism- it's not about how good one is, it's about what one can afford.  And there's nothing to feel guilty about there, either.

Ooo.  That hurts.   I have a Rolls sitting in my garage that at most I drive 50 miles a year to keep the battery charged.  I used it when I was selling apartment houses many years ago and it was important to have "flash".  I just can't get rid of it, but on OTOH won't drive it either.  I''m worried that any place I park it without a valet might result in the loss of the Flying Lady hood ornament.  Yes, I know.  Those are the kind of problems to have.

[M016576]

1 minute ago, donkaye said:

Ooo.  That hurts.   I have a Rolls sitting in my garage that at most I drive 50 miles a year to keep the battery charged.  I used it when I was selling apartment houses many years ago and it was important to have "flash".  I just can't get rid of it, but on OTOH won't drive it either.  I''m worried that any place I park it without a valet might result in the loss of the Flying Lady hood ornament.  Yes, I know.  Those are the kind of problems to have.

What we call "1st world problems" in my line of work!

 Although I don't think a true driver would be too envious... the rolls is all luxury.... more like a cirrus.... flashy... but the real drivers go for speed and handling.  You know.... like a mooney!

[donkaye, MCFI]

10 minutes ago, M016576 said:

What we call "1st world problems" in my line of work!

 Although I don't think a true driver would be too envious... the rolls is all luxury.... more like a cirrus.... flashy... but the real drivers go for speed and handling.  You know.... like a mooney!

Well the Rolls definitely "floats".  Obviously built like a tank and gets a fantastic 9 mi/gal and, therefore, comes with a 26 gallon tank.  It's less efficient than the Bravo, which gets between 11 and 14 nm/gal depending on winds.

[JohnB]

38 minutes ago, M016576 said:

Your life experiences, and perspectives are, at this point, not in alignment with my own.  I suppose I'm still on the "young" side, and I lack that perspective you speak of.  I hope to meet with the same successes that you have had some day, but until (or if.... big if...) that happens, I will be forced to justify and continuously evaluate the best fit for the mission.  As do many, many aircraft owners.  Imagine general aviation without an affordable, justifiable entry... and we all wonder where the young pilots have gone....

If I'm not flying over 12-14k, paying a premium to own a Bravo does not make a whole lot of sense to me.  That's all.  A beautiful airplane though.  Kind of like owning a Lambo, or Ferrari.  Beautiful, but some owners may just choose to keep them in their garage.  Somewhere a true, passionate driver winces.... but that's capitalism- it's not about how good one is, it's about what one can afford.  And there's nothing to feel guilty about there, either.

Oh if you or anyone else has got an extra Lambo in their garage I'd be happy to totally take it out and make sure it keeps running well.. Ok that would be a dream, an M or Acclaim and a Lambo in a hangar next to my own airstrip with an LPV approach. Yes!!! We can dream can't we?

Yes.. it is not worth debating over a plane you cannot afford in your life at the moment. Totally ok to drool over it though. A lot of the O vs. B discussion assumes you can reasonably comfortably afford both. When I bought my M, I knew I'd have to work a little harder to be able to keep up with it, but I did, and I love it. But interestingly enough, the Os and Ms I see on controller are not too much different in price. I just know if I had bought a NA airplane I would have already been thinking about changing planes. Now instead of getting a new plane that can accomplish more missions, I can upgrade my M to my wallet's content.  

John

[kaba]

My wife and I had the pleasure of flying with Don a few years ago.
He is an excellent instructor,as well as a gentleman.
And his sage wisdom still percolates in our brain when we fly.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[donkaye, MCFI]

1 hour ago, JohnB said:

Oh if you or anyone else has got an extra Lambo in their garage I'd be happy to totally take it out and make sure it keeps running well.. Ok that would be a dream, an M or Acclaim and a Lambo in a hangar next to my own airstrip with an LPV approach. Yes!!! We can dream can't we?

Yes.. it is not worth debating over a plane you cannot afford in your life at the moment. Totally ok to drool over it though. A lot of the O vs. B discussion assumes you can reasonably comfortably afford both. When I bought my M, I knew I'd have to work a little harder to be able to keep up with it, but I did, and I love it. But interestingly enough, the Os and Ms I see on controller are not too much different in price. I just know if I had bought a NA airplane I would have already been thinking about changing planes. Now instead of getting a new plane that can accomplish more missions, I can upgrade my M to my wallet's content.  

John

I think I should send this picture to Mooney.  It they stick it in an ad, maybe it would sell more Mooneys.  We should be that young again.  Taken right after I bought the plane in 1992.

[JohnB]

6 minutes ago, donkaye said:

I think I should send this picture to Mooney.  It they stick it in an ad, maybe it would sell more Mooneys.  We should be that young again.  Taken right after I bought the plane in 1992.

You bought your B new? Practically new? Nice! 

[donkaye, MCFI]

3 minutes ago, JohnB said:

You bought your B new? Practically new? Nice! 

John, it had 250 hours on it and 2 years left on the warranty.  I took the picture with the car because they are the same color, Forest Green and certainly the color of money--especially when the two are priced together.

[kmyfm20s]

 

Ah, I'm starting to understand the difference between Ovaition and Bravo owners;) Simple, efficient and fills 90% of my mission profile!

 

[XXX]

On 6/6/2017 at 2:19 AM, donkaye said:

And finally there is my life's Real Estate Story.  Except to say I tried to talk some of my fellow Engineers into doing what I was starting to do and no one would listen, I'll leave that story for another day.  But there is the most perspective in that one and it allows me to have the magic of flight be such a large part of my life today.

 Don, as a small time real estate investor you have piqued my interest. I would love to hear your story. 

Steve

[Danb]

Most of the younger pilots likely will be able to move into their choice of planes over time as life issues dwindle i.e., getting started in your profession, buying your starter home, paying for those beautiful kids, maybe private,charter or parochial school, college, paying for weddings, this is getting depressing etc.

My moves were as follows:

I started flying lessons, as a numbers guy, things were financially different then, I didn't want to pay plane rental fees, I bought a 1977 Cherokee after 2 lessons, for $16,000, sold one year later after getting my ticket for $18,000.

Bought a 1977 Mooney 201 in 1985 or so for $40,000 sold it in 1988 for $45,000

Bought a new 1988 Mooney 201, when Mooney was again in financial difficulty for $120,000 sold it to buy a 6 month old Bravo GX in 2006 for $145,000.

Until the financial meltdown and housing crisis I actually acquired equity in each plane.  Those days are OVER above equity approximately $27,000

The Bravo was in the low $400,000 range,I will never turn it around in an equity sense. Those days are over.

Todays world being different doesn't allow for the progression of gaining equity in the asset so the game most likely would be to acquire the plane that fits you and your needs, make it like you wish and desire over time, new paint,interior,engine, avionics you desire etc. 

Be patient your missions along with your desired plane will come, start with the piper, C model, cubbie whatever it will occur. Have fun, get lots of hours move up.

[donkaye, MCFI]

4 hours ago, Chupacabra said:

 Don, as a small time real estate investor you have piqued my interest. I would love to hear your story. 

Steve

Outside of acquiring the resources to buy whatever plane you desire, this isn't really Mooney specific. 

In our society there are really only three ways to acquire substantial wealth.  They are in the order of magnitude 1. Start a successful company and take it public (Apple), 2. Be gifted enough to be in the entertainment industry (an absolute non starter for me).  3. Become a Real Estate investor and let time and the power of compounding do its thing (requires no special genius, just the personality to diligently aim for a goal and a willingness to make a decision and act on it).  I chose path 3.  

In the beginning and being a young 26 year old Electrical Engineer, I had no concept of how the time aspect would work.  From my vantage point now many decades later I certainly do.  BTW, I have found that you can even make a major life mistake, and still have things work out well--not as well as without the mistake, but well anyway.  Also, unfortunately, it is VERY important to start early in life while a lot of time is still remaining.  Most young people just won't do it, though.  They have no perspective--yet.  By the time most do it is too late.  Also, by being willing to do something, you place yourself in the road of opportunities and its fun to catch a ride when they come along.

The book I could write would be pretty short and simple.  Buy at least one house a year in a good location at a fair price with 25% down (the money coming from a day job early in the process), and over the next 25-30 years your renters will pay them off, and in your later years you will have cash flow without having to work at a job.  The house values will also go up minimally with the cost of inflation and maximally with unforeseen beneficial situations.  In my case I stuck with areas I knew well, the Silicon Valley, and the unforeseen extraordinary circumstance were the creation by others of Companies like Apple and Google who pay employees a lot of money so they can rent my houses.  House values went from $31,000 when I started to $1,800,000 now.  Along the way several other opportunities came along, like a major shopping center developer needing to buy a house I had that was going to be in the middle of his development, (The Big Valley Fair Shopping Center.  I was fair and didn't gouge him, like the previous owner of the house tried to do and ended up losing it in foreclosure to me) and the opportunity to do a large condominium conversion where units I sold initially for $73,000 are now selling for $850,000.  Yes, I had kept a lot of them.  Meanwhile, over the years rents went up.  What started out at $250 a house with a loan against it is now up to $3,800 per house without a loan, and with 30-50 people calling when one comes up for rent.  Also along the way, I rented one of my houses to Joe Montana and Dwight Clark during the reign of the 49ers, but that's another story. 

So there's my story in simplified form.  Anyone else have a good one?

 

 

[gsengle]

My number one rule for building wealth? Always live within your means... this works no matter how much ya make.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[kmyfm20s]

A like minded significant other is really helpful as well!

[kmyfm20s]

Between REIT's, low cap rates and high cost of initial entry cost in California I think it is hard for the young person to build a real estate empire these days. Not impossible but you tend to get pushed into areas that are riskier, less desirable to personally live and require you to commute to manage them. 

[donkaye, MCFI]

On 6/7/2017 at 10:30 AM, kmyfm20s said:

Between REIT's, low cap rates and high cost of initial entry cost in California I think it is hard for the young person to build a real estate empire these days. Not impossible but you tend to get pushed into areas that are riskier, less desirable to personally live and require you to commute to manage them. 

I agree, California is out now.   You can't do what I have done in the large cities of California.  But when I was a buyer at fair market value everyone said you couldn't either.  One unnamed person did follow my guidance 15 years ago in Southern California and his properties have now doubled in value and rents have increased.

[Rszent]

I have an 04 Ovation left it with the 280 Hp and put a Semitar blade on it,,,Routinely fly out of 2500 ft with no problem whatsoever hot summer days and no wind condition,,,it will be fine 15% under gross...Although here in the northeast near the coast you will rarley see a DA much higher than 3,000 ft. With the 2 blade prop you will have a longer TO roll and with  2500 ft you will be pushing it esp if there is any obsticles to clear

[donkaye, MCFI]

15 minutes ago, Rszent said:

I have an 04 Ovation left it with the 280 Hp and put a Semitar blade on it,,,Routinely fly out of 2500 ft with no problem whatsoever hot summer days and no wind condition,,,it will be fine 15% under gross...Although here in the northeast near the coast you will rarley see a DA much higher than 3,000 ft. With the 2 blade prop you will have a longer TO roll and with  2500 ft you will be pushing it esp if there is any obsticles to clear

2500' is a piece of cake.  2100' is another matter entirely.

[Danb]

I watched some utube videos of operations at Fallbrook air park, no displaced areas, cliffs then the numbers, there is absolutely no way I would attempt to bring my Bravo there, on long trips I generally depart at gross weight, 3368 lbs is a bunch. Then the possibility of having to land over 3200 due to problems. I had my first last month, leaving Gulfport Ms at 3350, IFR condition but not low, I had to land just after takeoff, I just became a test pilot, could not imagine it at 2200 ft. 

[donkaye, MCFI]

Fallbrook is really not a difficult airport for the C150, C172 and even the C182.  The Cherokee 140, 150, 160 and even the 180 are so draggy that they would not be difficult either.  That Seneca, a draggy airplane, almost ran out of runway in the video.  I've landed my Bravo and come to a stop in about 800-900 feet with heavy braking in short field tests on long runways.  But that is not the norm.  Fallbrook just doesn't leave you with any options.  Get a downdraft, as you might expect, with wind coming over the "waterfall" threshold to runway 18 and you're in trouble in the sleek Mooney longbodys.

[triple8s]

On 6/5/2017 at 4:24 PM, Browncbr1 said:

ovations don't seem to have very good short field performance.  3000ft is ok, but it takes a while for the prop to bite.. 

for shorter fields, I would go mid body mooney.  apart from 252's, there are a few Fs around with turbos added,    or a K,  

I would say don't bother with a turbo unless you need to fly in oxygen levels regularly or takeoff from high DA regularly.. 

I have about 500 hrs in my O with 280 hp/2500 rpm and the 2 blade Mac prop, hot weather and heavy are not the best on ground roll but once I get off the ground and up to about 100 Kt or so it does well. Cruise? 180 kt is average at 8500 ft or so I have talked with other ovation owners and they say the 310 top prop makes it a totally different bird, great climb and no cruise speed penalty. For me, since I live in the east it's not too bad of an inconvenience, if I lived out west I may be more inclined to spring for the top prop n 310 hp. This I can say, my IO 550 will run LOP and it loves it. 12 gph and very little speed penalty. If I lived out west the bravo might be better but the ovation engine is VERY simple to operate. A turboed engine requires a little more attention. I would say either choice would be a good bird, the O might be a bit less in maintenance dollars, but I have very little experience with turbos, I just know I will never have to worry about managing a turbo in the ovation. Go Mooney!

Edited June 8, 2017 by triple8s
spelling

[Tx_Aggie]

On 6/6/2017 at 1:19 AM, donkaye said:

There is no "justifying" anything about airplane ownership or many other things in life you want.  There's also nothing to feel guilty about.  If you can afford it, want it, then get it.

I can get away with saying that because of perspective.  It wasn't too many years ago when I was one of the youngest on the block figuratively speaking.  Now I'm one of the oldest.  So I can truly say I have perspective.  Let me give just a couple of examples of the many I have experienced.  I once bought a house in the best area of the Bay Area where many of the Silicon Valley billionaires live now.  By today's standards I paid nothing practically for it.  I lived in it for a year and started to feel uncomfortable about owing such a big house.  I sold it for a small gain in 1975.  Today that house would go for about 20 million dollars.  Perspective.  But I really learned about perspective over the past 17 years.  On a recommendation from a financial newsletter I put some money in an EFT in the year 2000.  It turns out I had bought it at the high and in short order the technology bubble burst.  I wrote the publisher a nasty letter.  Then I said to myself how much could I lose and be able to sleep at night.  I decided half, so when it went down 10%, I sold half of what I put in.  The balance dropped another 60% and I figured "Well that's the end of that", but I still slept well.  I held on for the next 17 years and about 2 years ago I broke even.  I thought, "Well that's interesting" and let it ride.  It's now up over 120%.  Perspective. (I haven't sent him a thank  you letter yet, although I've been thinking about it).  And finally there is my life's Real Estate Story.  Except to say I tried to talk some of my fellow Engineers into doing what I was starting to do and no one would listen, I'll leave that story for another day.  But there is the most perspective in that one and it allows me to have the magic of flight be such a large part of my life today.

I guess what I"m trying to say is that looking back from my perspective today, the idea of having to think about justifying something that you really want (and can afford) just makes no sense to me now. 

So will it be a Bravo or Ovation?

Fellow engineer here, are you talking in terms of investment risk tolerance or overall life perspective? I’ll take free wisdom (while considering trading up to an M or R)!

[Tx_Aggie]

A little too quick on the trigger. Read the rest of the thread and found your explanation. Love the opportunity of compound interest over time that Real estate provides!!