Aspen or g5(s)

[salty]

55 minutes ago, LevelWing said:

It seems like I'm missing something. Their website says it includes the servos, installation kits, connector kit, etc. They're going to sell this system for $5,000-ish less installation? That's incredible.

That's my understanding. I may be missing something. 

[tigers2007]

I have no idea of you have an A&P friend that can get you a discount on the install. Nothing wrong with a G5 now and then selling it on the used market later. I am committed to spending $25k+ in avionics upgrades over the next 18mos or so. If you have any consideration of getting your ifr ticket the you want the Aspen. The scalability is priceless. The cost of the Aspen VFR PFD is about the same as two G5's installed. The problem is that the G5 twins won't drive an autopilot (but thats not relevant with the upcoming TruTrack STC). I already have a Century IIb which needs a dedicated AI and heading indicator to drive it - this can be done from the Aspen (with the ACU $600-900 option). At any time i can pay Aspen the $5000 or so fee to upgrade it via software update. Aspen or bust for me. My AI is quirky and the heading indicator isnt that great either. An overhaul of those two instruments will cost me btwn $1000-1200 alone. Id rather use that money toward the cost of the solid-state Aspen VFR PFD ($4300?). What is the current SnF deal?

I couldnt make it to SnF due to a last minute work related conference in Vegas...

 

 

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[Godfather]

I thought the magnetometer was included w/ the vfr unit..?

Could someone ask if the base vfr Aspen unit can be attached to the attitude input of the AP using just the ea100 with no other upgrades?

[tigers2007]

Let us know if you can get the current SnF $1,000 off April special in addition to Chief's current $4,380 pricing of the Aspen VFR unit.  That would be a great deal, IMHO.  I am thinking about it but haven't pulled the trigger yet. 

W H O A ! I'll call them tomorrow... I have a feeling it cant be that good....


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[smccray]

https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1894925#p1894925:

"I said point blank, there are many pilots who want to buy a G5 but cannot. You have not included any legacy autopilot support and have alienated the market I suspect you want to target. There is a thread on Beechtalk where this is supported. Are you going to give us Legacy AP support or am I going to buy an Aspen?

Paraphrased, they said they have seen the BT thread and other forums out there. We get it. We respond to customer needs. I don't have any specific answer for you, (long pause, had a look in his eyes), but we announce these types of support at events like this one. I would wait and see what comes out at OSH."
 

Thought I would make sure everyone here saw that.

 

[RobertGary1]

Kind of silly to lambast Garmin for not supporting legacy attitute based autopilots when they just changed the world with an approved ahrs based attitude indicator for less than the cost of an electric gyro. Sounds like a "no good deed goes unpunished" to me. 

-Robert 

[salty]

13 hours ago, Godfather said:

I thought the magnetometer was included w/ the vfr unit..?

Could someone ask if the base vfr Aspen unit can be attached to the attitude input of the AP using just the ea100 with no other upgrades?

I got a yes to this question

[Godfather]

13 minutes ago, salty said:

I got a yes to this question

This combo could be the cheapest solid state replacement for the ki256... 6.5 amu for the combo. 

[gsengle]

This combo could be the cheapest solid state replacement for the ki256... 6.5 amu for the combo. 

Which combo?


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[Godfather]

Aspen VFR PFD with the ea100 adapter.  In my case just slide the 525 over and just use the Aspen to provide attitude info and backup non vertical cdi info from my secondary gps unit. My primary gps would still drive the 525 and my AP. 

With the limited interface the install would be cheaper and if something new was announced next year I'd just liquidate off the PFD for the new version. My guess is the ea100 will still be used with future Aspen units. 

Just to add the attitude output on a g500 is almost $5k because you have to buy the adapter and the unlock code. No unlock code is needed for the Aspen. 

Edited April 7, 2017 by Godfather

[tigers2007]

Let us know if you can get the current SnF $1,000 off April special in addition to Chief's current $4,380 pricing of the Aspen VFR unit.  That would be a great deal, IMHO.

Per the Aspen website and browsing Sarasota Avionics web site, the $1000 discount is off of MSRP. So $3995.00. Its still a street price discount of about 10%.


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[Godfather]

Just now, tigers2007 said:

Per the Aspen website and browsing Sarasota Avionics web site, the $1000 discount is off of MSRP. So $3995.00. Its still a street price discount of about 10%.


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Or 20% depending on what type of math is used

[NotarPilot]

2 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

Kind of silly to lambast Garmin for not supporting legacy attitute based autopilots when they just changed the world with an approved ahrs based attitude indicator for less than the cost of an electric gyro. Sounds like a "no good deed goes unpunished" to me. 

-Robert 

And the best part is the world is going to keep changing.  I feel very optimistic about a lot of things to come right now...

FAA ready for next step in simplifying certification

[PTK]

Price wars are great aren't they?!

To answer the op's question, given the choice between aspen or g5, I would choose a pair of g5's. There are great things coming in the horizon and you want to be aligned with the leader, Garmin. Frankly, and I sincerely hope I'm wrong, I'm not very optimistic that aspen can survive what's coming!

[gsengle]

Aspen VFR PFD with the ea100 adapter.  In my case just slide the 525 over and just use the Aspen to provide attitude info and backup non vertical cdi info from my secondary gps unit. My primary gps would still drive the 525 and my AP. 
With the limited interface the install would be cheaper and if something new was announced next year I'd just liquidate off the PFD for the new version. My guess is the ea100 will still be used with future Aspen units. 
Just to add the attitude output on a g500 is almost $5k because you have to buy the adapter and the unlock code. No unlock code is needed for the Aspen. 

But don't you need a backup ai with the Aspen?


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[Godfather]

55 minutes ago, gsengle said:

But don't you need a backup ai with the Aspen?


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Yep, I have a G5 ready to go...plenty of top flight shops putting them in...

[Marauder]

1 hour ago, gsengle said:

But don't you need a backup ai with the Aspen?


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They do. I don't know how these avionics shops are getting field approvals (if they are even getting approvals) when the manufacturer says you can't use it as a backup (even with their own flagship offering) is beyond me.

I will tell you one thing, if I was installing a G5 for this purpose, I wouldn't be putting this up on an internet site for the whole world to see.

[Godfather]

37 minutes ago, Marauder said:

I will tell you one thing, if I was installing a G5 for this purpose, I wouldn't be putting this up on an internet site for the whole world to see.

 Nothing to hide...my shop would install with proper FAA authority the G5 in the proper location (which is a joke with all the shotgun panels out there). So the only rub is if in a currently available Aspen install manual if it spells out that a certified AI with a 4 hr battery is not allowed as a backup.  I don't have access to this type of reading material which is why I put my trust in professionals...

[RobertGary1]

7 minutes ago, Godfather said:

 Nothing to hide...my shop would install with proper FAA authority the G5 in the proper location (which is a joke with all the shotgun panels out there). So the only rub is if in a currently available Aspen install manual if it spells out that a certified AI with a 4 hr battery is not allowed as a backup.  I don't have access to this type of reading material which is why I put my trust in professionals...

I think the issue is that the G5 STC approves it for a primary but not a backup, which the Aspen requires. 

 

-Robert

[Godfather]

So a quick scan from a poh supplement shows the requirement for a mechanical backup AI...not sure if that has been amended. 

4 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

I think the issue is that the G5 STC approves it for a primary but not a backup, which the Aspen requires. 

 

-Robert

Not sure if that means that any Aspen install that moved your current AI (vac or otherwise) over during the install is illegal?

Are they saying another AI for backup or an AI only sold as and useable as a backup AI?

[Marauder]

45 minutes ago, Godfather said:

So a quick scan from a poh supplement shows the requirement for a mechanical backup AI...not sure if that has been amended. 

Not sure if that means that any Aspen install that moved your current AI (vac or otherwise) over during the install is illegal?

Are they saying another AI for backup or an AI only sold as and useable as a backup AI?

What the Aspen STC says is that a backup AI is required with an independent source. Currently there are two solutions for this, a mechanical AI driven off of vacuum or an approved unit that is certified as a backup. The reason the G5 is not able to meet that criteria as a backup is that it relies on airspeed in conjunction with the AHRS to derive attitude. If you lose the pitot static system, the G5 and the Aspen both lose this input. Obviously the mechanical AI wouldn't be subject to this but the G5 is.

Trek's message was to indicate that the G5 is not certified to act as a backup. Note his highlighted words. They did not go after the required certification to function in this capacity. How the Sandia Quattro and the L-3 ESI-500 does this is they are certified to perform at a degraded level if the airspeed is not available to support the AHRS calculation of attitude. The following is what I received from Jim Keeth of L-3 on the topic:

Yes, the ESI-500 can absolutely be used as a backup attitude indicator, airspeed indicator, and altimeter with an Aspen 2000 system. Although the ESI-500 does use airspeed as an aiding source for computing attitude (and I believe all AHRS systems for GA use either GPS or airspeed aiding), the ESI-500 has a degraded mode of operation if airspeed aiding is lost. Essentially, when in degraded mode, the ESI-500 attitude reverts to the performance level of a standard mechanical attitude indicator (TSO-c4c), rather than the performance level of an AHRS (TSO-C201).  

FWIW…the Garmin G5 uses GPS and I think also airspeed as an aiding source, but I don’t know if it has a degraded mode of operation like the ESI-500. If it doesn’t, then it’s likely that the G5 wouldn’t get STC approval to be used as a backup with an Aspen system.  

Hope this helps. Thanks for your interest in the ESI-500 and please don’t hesitate to contact me if you have any additional questions. Also happy to hear you are considering our NGT-9000+. Based on feedback from our customers I’m sure you’ll love the NGT-9000+! 

Have a good week and stay warm! 

Jim Keeth

Senior Field Service Engineer

L-3 Communications Avionics Systems

5353 52nd St SE

Grand Rapids, MI 49512

(616)285-4436 Office

(616)916-8394 Cell

(616)977-6895 Fax

www.l-3avionics.com

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I'm not trying to rain on your G5 parade and I really hope the avionics shops have figured out a way to get these approved as backups, but when the manufacturer tells you it isn't certified and one of the other avionics manufacturers tells you why it isn't certified, I usually listen. Except when it comes to posting fat women pcitures. 

[Marauder]

And just as another data point, why do you think I have a mechanical AI in my plane when I have two AIs already there?! My Aspen MFD that has it's own AHRS AI can't backup the primary AHRS AI in the PFD. Crazy world...

[Godfather]

I've talked to Jim in person many times and have a lot of his equipment in my plane. 

The Garmin has the same mode of degraded (no red x's) failure mode which is why they were able to certify it primary without needing a backup. I'm looking for something that specifically states that tenge garmin unit can't be used. 

[Godfather]

1 minute ago, Marauder said:

And just as another data point, why do you think I have a mechanical AI in my plane when I have two AIs already there?! My Aspen MFD that has it's own AHRS AI can't backup the primary AHRS AI in the PFD. Crazy world...

Because if your pitot tube is blocked both screens go dark?

[Godfather]

I'm actually planning on having a backup mechanical AI on the copilot side because I don't fully trust the panels.  I just don't want to remove my engine gauge to put it closer to the pilot  

Thanks for the L3 link above!