Ever get the urge to sit behind two fans?

[Godfather]

Just now, KLRDMD said:

Lots of airplanes *can* do lots of things. I've had my share of airplanes including one with an IO-550. Realistically, if you plan to fly at or above 12,000 ft even once in a while, you're better off buying a turbo. If you fly above 15,000 ft regularly, pressurization is a worthwhile consideration.

That's a great point.  My opinion is I can climb past 12k at an average of 1000 fpm and enjoy flying in the low to mid teens especially out west.  

[peevee]

9 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

Lots of airplanes *can* do lots of things. I've had my share of airplanes including one with an IO-550. Realistically, if you plan to fly at or above 12,000 ft even once in a while, you're better off buying a turbo. If you fly above 15,000 ft regularly, pressurization is a worthwhile consideration.

I think that's the crux of it. It sounds like some folks that have never flown behind a turbo saying "WELL MY PLANE CAN DO THAT TOO!!!!11" without really understanding the difference.

[peevee]

Just now, Godfather said:

That's a great point.  My opinion is I can climb past 12k at an average of 1000 fpm and enjoy flying in the low to mid teens especially out west.  

and I can climb past 12k at 1700FPM and maintain 1500 to FL240. That's the difference. I have 305HP available at FL200, you have what, maybe 150?

[gsengle]

and I can climb past 12k at 1700FPM and maintain 1500 to FL240. That's the difference. I have 305HP available at FL200, you have what, maybe 150?

When did this become a pissing contest?


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[LevelWing]

This thread hasn't changed my mind about not wanting to get a twin. It has, however, made me really want a turbo Mooney, especially since I live out west. My climb rate on a hot date is pretty anemic.

[peevee]

Just now, gsengle said:

When did this become a pissing contest?


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when you tried to say your R was better than the P337 because you could claw your way up to FL200.

[gsengle]

No I didn't. And everyone can go back and read that I didn't.

Evidently you don't like being told you're wrong.


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[kpaul]

32 minutes ago, gsengle said:

Someone explain why the P337 is *disappointingly* limited, ahem only CERTIFIED to 20k feet?

I would have to assume that is the altitude at which the pressurization system can maintain a cabin altitude at or below 10K.

[peevee]

Just now, gsengle said:

No I didn't. And everyone can go back and read that I didn't.

Evidently you don't like being told you're wrong.


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I'm not the one that still can't seem to work out the difference between service ceiling and certified ceiling, despite having it explained to me. Do I need to get a big red crayon and draw it out for you? The service ceiling on the P337 is in excess of FL250, there is no way you're going to whip your NA mooney that high, bit since you can't grasp the difference between the two terms, you don't get it.

[gsengle]

I would have to assume that is the altitude at which the pressurization system can maintain a cabin altitude at or below 10K.

Are there other pressurized aircraft with certified ceilings that low? If I paid all that money and maintenance I'd want at least 24 myself.


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[gsengle]

I'm not the one that still can't seem to work out the difference between service ceiling and certified ceiling, despite having it explained to me. Do I need to get a big red crayon and draw it out for you? The service ceiling on the P337 is in excess of FL250, there is no way you're going to whip your NA mooney that high, bit since you can't grasp the difference between the two terms, you don't get it.

If you can't be nice and congenial in this forum I don't need to waste my time on you.


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[kmyfm20s]

41 minutes ago, peevee said:

Well, I can climb there in about 13 minutes for one.

if it's so easy and practical to operate NA mooneys in the high teens why is literally no one doing it ever? And when they do the once in their life to show that they did it they post pics about it. Come back to reality.

I would also like to flip the question to you. Why are so many turbo charge planes not flying in the mid to high teens?

I'm assuming people would buy plane that fit 90% of there mission profile like I did. The couple time a year go up to 17,500' on few trips that I do I'm happy only going 173 KTAS, taking 7 more minutes in the climb and burning 10.4 gph. 

The 90% of my trips I happy with the simplicity, reliability and economy of my NA engine. Trust me I have turbo and twin envy but doesn't pencil out. 

[kpaul]

Just now, gsengle said:

 

 

Are there other pressurized aircraft with certified ceilings that low? If I paid all that money and maintenance I'd want at least 24 myself.


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I don't have a POH for it, but that is usually the limiting factor.

[peevee]

Just now, kmyfm20s said:

I would also like to flip the question to you. Why are so many turbo charge planes not flying in the mid to high teens?

I'm assuming people would buy plane that fit 90% of there mission profile like I did. The couple time a year go up to 17,500' on few trips that I do I'm happy only going 173 KTAS, taking 7 more minutes in the climb and burning 10.4 gph. 

The 90% of my trips I happy with the simplicity, reliability and economy of my NA engine. Trust me I be turbo and twin envy but doesn't pencil out. 

Beats me. I consider 12k or so low and only linger down there when the winds force me to. If I'm going more than an hour or so I'll go 170-210 depending on the winds. The difficulty is in calculating at which point the TAS gained by going higher is negated by the wind difference between that and staying low, if there's a headwind.

[KLRDMD]

3 minutes ago, Godfather said:

I can climb past 12k at an average of 1000 fpm and enjoy flying in the low to mid teens especially out west.  

 

2 minutes ago, peevee said:

I can climb past 12k at 1700FPM and maintain 1500 to FL240. 

Guys, this isn't a "who's bigger" contest. Different airplanes have different primary missions. Just because they have a primary mission doesn't mean they can't do other things too. In the mid  teens or above, a turbocharged airplane is ideal. Yes a high displacement normally aspirated one can fly there too but it isn't as efficient. If you almost exclusively fly below 10,000 ft the turbo doesn't make sense.

We all pick our airplanes because it meets our needs best. It doesn't have to meet anyone else's needs the best. Overall, a 231 meets my needs best right now so that's what I own and fly. A Rocket meets other's needs best and an Ovation meets other's needs best and a "C" model meets other's needs best. Even a Bonanza or a Cessna or a Cirrus meets other's needs best. So what ? If it doesn't meet my needs best, it isn't the right airplane FOR ME.

And don't try to convince me that I should own and fly an airplane because it meets YOUR needs best.

[Roger O]

According to what I've found about the P337, the 20k limitation is because the mags are not pressurized.  Some people find that there is an occasional engine miss at that altitude, and that's attributed to the lack of pressurized mags.  The T337B is certified to 33k, because of the change to the mags.

[peevee]

Just now, kpaul said:

I don't have a POH for it, but that is usually the limiting factor.

the 337 forum mentions a lack of onboard o2 as a potential factor.

[peevee]

Just now, Sherman18 said:

According to what I've found about the P337, the 20k limitation is because the mags are not pressurized.  Some people find that there is an occasional engine miss at that altitude, and that's attributed to the lack of pressurized mags.  The T337B is certified to 33k, because of the change to the mags.

you're also robbing pressure off the compressor on the back engine for the cabin of course.

[KLRDMD]

2 minutes ago, kpaul said:

I would have to assume that is the altitude at which the pressurization system can maintain a cabin altitude at or below 10K.

The cabin altitude at 20,000 ft in a P337 (or P210) is 10,000 ft, yes. But the 20,000 ft limitation was a due to some specific FAA rule, not the cabin altitude. The P210 is certified to 23,000 ft with the same pressurization system as the P337.

[KLRDMD]

4 minutes ago, kmyfm20s said:

I would also like to flip the question to you. Why are so many turbo charge planes not flying in the mid to high teens?

There's more to a turbocharged airplane than just cruise performance. If you live in a high density altitude area, the takeoff and climb performance even well below 10,000 ft AGL may be sufficient reason to buy a turbocharged airplane.

[KLRDMD]

3 minutes ago, Sherman18 said:

According to what I've found about the P337, the 20k limitation is because the mags are not pressurized.  Some people find that there is an occasional engine miss at that altitude, and that's attributed to the lack of pressurized mags.  The T337B is certified to 33k, because of the change to the mags.

My magnetos were pressurized, and everyone I knew with P337s were too. That's not the reason for the 20,000 ft limitation. It was an FAA thing, I don't have specifics right in front of me at the moment.

[KLRDMD]

9 minutes ago, gsengle said:

Are there other pressurized aircraft with certified ceilings that low? If I paid all that money and maintenance I'd want at least 24 myself.

 

All that money ?

I paid $62,500 for my P337. How much did you pay for your Ovation ? I posted the flat rate annual for the P337, not all that much more than a 231.

[KLRDMD]

8 minutes ago, peevee said:

the 337 forum mentions a lack of onboard o2 as a potential factor.

No. Not an issue.

[KLRDMD]

7 minutes ago, peevee said:

you're also robbing pressure off the compressor on the back engine for the cabin of course.

A P337 can maintain full pressurization at 20,000 ft one only one engine so neither engine is working that hard to maintain pressurization.

[peevee]

1 minute ago, KLRDMD said:

A P337 can maintain full pressurization at 20,000 ft one only one engine so neither engine is working that hard to maintain pressurization.

I thought it only drew pressurization air off the rear engine?