M20J TKS

[laytonl]

Guys,

I have a 1978, M20J which is a great airplane, but it.. doesn't have any icing protection.  I would like an airplane with some degree of icing protection (not necessarily FIKI).  Which Models are likely to have icing protection?  Did any M20J year models have TKS as an option?

Lee

[Parker_Woodruff]

You can add it, but it's expensive.  For the same money, you could upgrade airplanes to a known-ice model.  If you're planning on being around ice a lot, you should get a model that has a setup approved for flight into known icing.

 

M20K (252 and Encore)

M20M

M20R

M20S

M20T...

...can all be outfitted with known-ice setups.  Keep in mind that known-ice TKS setup requires there be dual alternators, so in your purchase, you should consider this.

 

I live in Texas and all my cancellations, except for a leaky compass, have been due to ice.  K-Ice protection or the ability to add such is a requirement in my next aircraft purchase.

[KLRDMD]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

I live in Texas and all my cancellations, except for a leaky compass, have been due to ice.  K-Ice protection or the ability to add such is a requirement in my next aircraft purchase.

[richardheitzman]

for your information, you should visit www.weepingwings.com and check out the site. The M20J is on the STC for the system. This M20J is not FIKI.

Mooney TKS^TM systems are available for a wide range of Mooney aircraft. These include the M20J, K, M, R and S models. The systems weigh 37 lb dry, and 96 lb with full fluid. 6.3 gallons of fluid provide an endurance of 2.5 hours. Systems approved for flight into known icing are available from CAV aeropce for the M20K (252 and Encore), M20M, M20R, M20S and M20TN.

[N33GG]

Quote: KLRDMD

When I had a known ice Bravo, I didn't launch into known icing conditions. I didn't make any flights with the KI that I wouldn't have made without it, so after a couple of years I ended up selling the Bravo. I decided, for me, that KI conditions require a turboprop.

[FullyArticulate]

I owned an Aerostar with FIKI certification prior to my current Mooney. In my experience, the de-icing buys you a few minutes to get out of something you should have avoided in the first place. If you're thinking a TKS in a Mooney will allow you to launch into all weather, please reconsider.

[231Pilot]

TKS will allow you to get out of trouble if you act with deliberate speed, but continuing into icing conditions can overwhem the TKS system, or delaying the activtation of the TKS system can be fatal.  NTSB accident files erport on  more than one anti-icing equipped planes that went down because the system could not keep up with the ice accumulation. Anti-icing is a wonderful safety feature to have, and has saved many, many lives.....but using it to routinely launch into KI is risky business at best.

[KSMooniac]

I'm not sure adding TKS to a J (or other non-turbo Mooney) is a great idea because there is a high likelihood that you won't be able to climb above icing conditions and you really shouldn't drone along in icing conditions even with TKS.  Ovations at less than gross weight can climb better and that might be a better candidate, but IMO one should really have a turbo along with TKS in order to maximize the escape options while trying to complete a trip in the winter.  If you can't climb above it, you likely need to turn around (or descend if still above MEA) and you can do those things without TKS in a J. 

[jelswick]

I've picked up ice a few times and it always shakes me up.  Once the kids are in college I know I plan to either add it to my J or upgrade to a Mooney that has it.  Right now, I'm so in love with this J, I'd be happy just adding it to this rather than replacing the aircraft.  If I thought I'd sell anytime in the near term, I wouldn't do it because I don't think from what I've seen of ones equipped with it in the market that you'll recoup the cost.  If you think you have the airplane you want for many years to come and given the added safety net you get to get you time getting out of icing, then I think it's a sound investment IMHO.

[Piloto]

Quote: KSMooniac

I'm not sure adding TKS to a J (or other non-turbo Mooney) is a great idea because there is a high likelihood that you won't be able to climb above icing conditions and you really shouldn't drone along in icing conditions even with TKS.  Ovations at less than gross weight can climb better and that might be a better candidate, but IMO one should really have a turbo along with TKS in order to maximize the escape options while trying to complete a trip in the winter.  If you can't climb above it, you likely need to turn around (or descend if still above MEA) and you can do those things without TKS in a J. 

[M016576]

Quote: KLRDMD

When I had a known ice Bravo, I didn't launch into known icing conditions. I didn't make any flights with the KI that I wouldn't have made without it, so after a couple of years I ended up selling the Bravo. I decided, for me, that KI conditions require a turboprop.

[jlunseth]

Quote: Piloto

Jose

[M016576]

I don't know about you guys, but here's how I deal with icing in the mooney:

A) If the temperatures/cloud layers are such that icing could exist during my climbout and/or approach: I won't go (or I'll have a CAVU alternate in the case of the approach at my destination).

I check the NOAA map for my route of flight prior to departure, then get the closest METAR's and TAF's to verify cloud layers, etc, and look for potential "problem areas"

C) 1800WXBRIEF (don't skip this step)

D) Once airborne and on my way, I continue to monitor the TAF's and weather (XM weather... amazing and affordable to anyone that owns an airplane.  Don't go another day without it if you haven't taken the plunge yet).

E) On Route: I know the icing levels because of my pre flight planning.  So if I'm flying at an altitude that is in the potential icing realm, I won't fly into visible moisture.  Period.  It's not like you can't see it coming!

F) Never climb through a cloud layer because you think you can "get above it." (unless you just descended into the layer and you KNOW where the top is.

G) The best two ways to get out of icing conditions are to A) turn around or (if able) descend to warmer temperatures.

H) If you launched into IFR conditions in the wintertime, you may just get what you deserve.

Icing is no joke.  It's not a layer to "bust through" either.  Be safe... don't mess with it, stay clear, descend to warmer air and flight plan to not require putting yourself in that position.  If you have the weeping wing stuff, that's great, but just remember, that they aren't as effective as boots, and you're playing with fire (ice?) when you start making dedicated runs into those conditions. 

Remember: if you have all the time in the world, the best way to travel is by a GA airplane... that way you can WX CNX without worry....

[N33GG]

Quote: M016576

G) The best two ways to get out of icing conditions are to A) turn around or (if able) descend to warmer temperatures.

[Cruiser]

I don't see icing as an all or nothing situation that is getting described here. What about all the low overcast days that you can't fly because it requires a climb through 4,000' or 5,000' layer to get on top?

What about those IFR days that ATC wants to give you a tour of the local countryside with vectors to the final approach?

What about those 200 or 300 mile trips that start in IFR and end in beautiful VFR conditions?

And finally what about those unforeseen and unforecast conditions that deteriorated more quickly than your flight into a headwind allowed you to get home before the ice got there?

None of these are "launch into known icing conditons" but every one of them is a real possibility to happen. Having TKS with the reassurance that it will give me the margin to get out or through icing (should it occur) sure would be a comfort I could be very happy with. (read, wish I had TKS on my M20J)

[M016576]

Quote: Cruiser

I don't see icing as an all or nothing situation that is getting described here. What about all the low overcast days that you can't fly because it requires a climb through 4,000' or 5,000' layer to get on top?

What about those IFR days that ATC wants to give you a tour of the local countryside with vectors to the final approach?

What about those 200 or 300 mile trips that start in IFR and end in beautiful VFR conditions?

And finally what about those unforeseen and unforecast conditions that deteriorated more quickly than your flight into a headwind allowed you to get home before the ice got there?

None of these are "launch into known icing conditons" but every one of them is a real possibility to happen. Having TKS with the reassurance that it will give me the margin to get out or through icing (should it occur) sure would be a comfort I could be very happy with. (read, wish I had TKS on my M20J)

[KLRDMD]

Quote: M016576

[FlyingAggie]

Very informative discussion about ice, especially with the fatal accident last week in Colorado Srprings, where an Air Force B1 pilot and his wife were killed when attempting a second approach in their E-model.  KCOS was reporting 100' ceilings and 700' RVR in ICE fog, bit it is not clear if ice caused the crash or not.

If anyone is interested in a TKS equipped M20K, a pilot in my "hangar neighborhood" has his  Aspen PFD equipped 231 for sale.  He is wanting to move up to a pressurized TKS Barron.

http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20K-231/1979-MOONEY-M20K-231/1182477.htm

Wishing all MooneySpace members a prosperous and safe New Years!

[John Pleisse]

I think the Mooney 201 is too underpowered to seriously consider the untility of TKS, but then again Wilmar has installed many of them on 201's. There's nothing like horsepower at altitude.

[John Pleisse]

I think the Mooney 201 is too underpowered to seriously consider the untility of TKS, but then again Wilmar has installed many of them on 201's. There's nothing like horsepower at altitude.

Also, JOB...facinating ice encounters. Could it have been your speed and airframe smoothness?

[jelswick]

N4352H, Just curious what you mean by 201s being too underpowered to seriously consider the utility of TKS?  I can't do it now, but in a few years when the kids are off to college I'm considering that for my J when it will be almost exclusively my wife and I flying around at that point.  We get a lot of ice in Ohio down low and typically go to the beach or other out of state places at around 8,000-12,000 ft where we can definitely run into the stuff and I've found it before where there was supposed to be no ice.  Are you saying from a performance standpoint or just from a cost/benefit standpoint?  It is horribly expensive, but at the point I might need it and we can afford it, I'm thinking we'd be glad to have over spent.

[rorythedog]

Quote: jelswick

N4352H, Just curious what you mean by 201s being too underpowered to seriously consider the utility of TKS?