Landing configuration M20R Help?

[Flyingmora]

Hello everyone, 

I finally took delivery of a 1999 Ovation two weeks ago  and have a question on the landing configuration.  

Several years ago I was a member of a flying club and flew a 2004 Ovation and was taught to trim FULL NOSE UP before landing. I've read the POH on the 1999 Ovation and it does not specify, mmm.... Below is the NORMAL LANDING configuration I was taught to use, but now I am confused, any help with this subject would be appreciated.  (Also,ATTACHING Check list).

Thanks in advance,

Rick

NORMAL LANDING:

Landing Gear – DOWN BELOW 140 KIAS

Throttle… CHT Green Ark

Wing Flaps:

TAKEOFF POSITION BELOW 130 KIAS

FULL DOWN BELOW 110 KIAS

Propeller – FULL FORWARD

Elevator Trim – FULL NOSE UP

Approach Speed -- 70-75 KIAS (normal), 65-70 KIAS (short field)

 

[carusoam]

Rick,

With only two people up front and fuel in the tanks, the CG is very forward.

You may have difficulty holding your approach speed (70 kts - well under gross) without using full up trim.

I was M20R trained with the following:  Maintain the sight picture in the windscreen and adjust speed with throttle.  Adjust trim as necessary to hold the sight picture.

____________________________________________________________________

While adjsuting trim as necessary, I found that with only one or two people up front (no rear CG help) that the trim pretty much is at its up limit.

70kts feels slow and control is starting to be mushy, but the float down the runway is minimized.

I don't think I have nailed a power setting just yet.  But it looks like 13.5" of manifold pressure will fly the pattern to landing.  So many other variables going on, it is hard to just "set it and forget it".  Either way, I found the power setting to be much lower than I had expected from my M20c experience.  (could be that the gauges just work better)

Best regards,

-a-

[Flyingmora]

Carusoam,

Thanks for your advice, I do feel more stability with two passengers and FULL NOSE UP as well as minimizing the floating; however, this brings up another question.  

What if you have a balked landing and have to go around? What's your experience on this?

Regards,

Rick

N72TF

[MooneyMitch]

Quote: Flyingmora

Carusoam,

Thanks for your advice, I do feel more stability with two passengers and FULL NOSE UP as well as minimizing the floating; however, this brings up another question.  

What if you have a balked landing and have to go around? What's your experience on this?

Regards,

Rick

N72TF

[carusoam]

Rick,

Mitch has covered it well.  I launched a thread a while ago on touch and goes in mooneys.  Search for it, if you can't find I'll look it up. TNG might be the key word.

http://www.mooneyspace.com/index.cfm?mainaction=posts&forumid=1&threadid=1100

Be very aware that when you add power with the flaps down, it will push hard to go nose up.  Hold the nose where you want it when you feed in power.  You will probably be pushing the yoke as the trim takes time and the power is full in.   My M20C was not much different.  (except there was no eletric trim....)

I usually hold the nose down, and electric trim with the left hand, while feeding in power with the right, flaps up, gear up follow again with the right hand.

Not alot of power is required to arrest the sink rate.  The whole 280 or 300 hp does not need to come on at once.

I suspect, not maintaining control of the nose up condition will cause you heartache......  It can bounce up a bit as an initial surprise, but you WILL bring it back down to maintain flying speed.

Now you know to expect it, I don't think you will be surprised by it. 

I recommend practicing the go around, not so much the TNG, unless your runway is really long....

TNGs: - a little float, big configuration change, 70kts and end of the runway is coming up quick........ Then remembering gear up and gear down in the right order at the right time.......

-a-

[carusoam]

Went flying today.  Tested the theory of whether I am using full up trim on final.  We had a rare no wind day and I was really able to hold 70kts on short final.  I was pretty close to full up trim, but not all of the way.  I continued to add more up trim as I slowed into the flare.

Flare goes something like this in my mind.....hold it.....hooooold it.....  hoooooooooooold it........Softest touch down of the year, held the nose off for another 50ft.  Heavy braking made the second turn-off (rwy 29) to the MSC at Robbinsville, NJ.

Used about 1,500 ft according to the technique I am experimenting with.

http://bit.ly/c1VUWR    (you may have to pan out to make it work properly)

http://www.trails.com/googlemap.aspx  (try it for yourself)

-a-

 

[rbharvey]

surprised no one screamed at his checklist saying takeoff flaps at 130kts....that aint right.

 

No flaps till 110kts, been debated over and over and that's the answer

 

Bob

[MooneyMitch]

"Should you trim full nose up on a normal landing M20R?"  Our favorite Mooney instructor, Don Kaye says YES, in the long bodies! 

[roundout]

I set the trim about halfway between the top of the white arc and the nose up limit on final. This accomplishes a few things:

1. verifies that my trim is actually set where I expect it to be. I've seen misrigged and malfunctioning trim indicators in old planes, newer planes with the electronic trim and flap displays and even in G1000 Mooneys. It's not common but it could really get you in a pickle. 

2. re-inforces the fact that, if you're fast, you need to get slowed. If my control of pitch attitude is suspect a mile from the runway, how well does that bode for rounding out and flaring? If you're too fast on final, you actually have to give the yoke a little forward pressure. That's a good check against what I'm seeing outside and what my MP setting and fuel flow.

 

3. Known quantity to work from on every landing

From there, I add nose up trim as necessary as I reduce power crossing the fence and pulling the power smoothly to idle as I round out. With some CG loading the trim ends up at full nose up but usually it doesn't. I don't like it full nose up because it can make a go around a headache. 

FWIW, I rarely ever fly the same airplane and fly many that are new-to-me. I carry a fair amount of skepticism any time I get in a plane and try my best to not trust them. Perhaps it would be different if I flew one bird regularly. 

[Flyingmora]

Everyone,  thanks for the input on landing configuration as well as the TNG thread.   I will practice some of this in my M20R with my instructor and see what works best for me, will keep you posted.   Again Thanks...   Ricardo

[richardheitzman]

I get the aircraft configured in the final, hold firm the sight picture to see the 80 knots, trim out the pressure on the yoke. IE when I have everything set right, I can fly the final hands off and maintain the sight picture that gives 80 knots. The trim usually is almost all the way up.

What do you do on the go around. First off, when you apply the power your thumb better be on the trim getting the nose down, AND you better be bracing your elbow on the left arm into the arm rest to hold that nose down till the pressure is reduced via the trim, and you can hurry that up by using the trim wheel but that is (to me) a little ackward. Don't apply the power is a great big hurry. Smooth application, brace for the rise, trim, flaps gear.

Practice it a bunch of times till it is second nature. It will save you the cost of a engine and prop on your next bounced landing if you can push that power in and go around with confidence.

[vasco]

i fly an O3.  i don't like the blanket rule of "always using full trim".  You should fly the approach to lannding expecting to have quite a bit of up trim and on the go around not pitching up to high and as was previously posted, immediately began triming down.  Fly the aiplane; every landing is different.  My two cents....

[N513ZM]

Quote: Mitch

 For my flying, a go-around is the same in the Ovation, as it is in Jolie's E model.  Full throttle, obtain a positive rate of climb speed [Vx, Vy depending on elevation, obstacles or other variations that may occur],  retract gear [your choice], bleed off flaps to take off position and adjust trim to take off position..............doing all this, keeping the aircraft in a positive rate of climb attitude with proper speed. 

Due to the full up trim position, you can and may want to use the trim wheel to get faster results to obtain the take off position of the aircraft trim.  This has been my experience. 

[vasco]

Another reason not to automatically go full up trim on every landing is that the weight in the luggage area will vary on most flights.  With weight in the luggage compartment nearing the limit, i have found that a lot less up trim is required.

[ovation0219]

I am a CFII and i teach trim is used to neutralize yoke forces. not to program a landing. Put the airplane in the attitude it needs tobe for decent and trim for neutral yoke forces.  Trim full up just means you are fighting the airplane during your approach and it will cause excessive yoke pressure when you do a go around. Landing is a series of corrections and each may be a little different.