Shadrach Posted August 27, 2015 Report Posted August 27, 2015 The issue is very easy to explain - or very hard whichever you prefer: no one was able to tell us why the gear collapsed. FAA conducted its own investigation and cited mechanical failure as possible cause. There were at least three factors in that incdident, both human amd nechanical, that might have played the critical roile but nobody will ever know for sure which one was the real culprit. I don't want to land the plane having back thoughts every time that the next moment my plane may turn into the pile of metal on the runway. For my wife, who was actually in left seat on that day, getting back into this airplane even on the ground, brings very painful memories. So, my bird has to fly... away If no one will tell you what failed, then they are likely preferring not to issue a "probable cause" that will negatively impact anyone's ticket. Either that or none of the folks involved know much about the J-bar gear. It's a simple system and it would be easy to confirm the point of failure. Just from what facts you've stated in this thread, it pretty easy to give an armchair analysis of what happened. However, that's not going to make anyone feel any better about that nasty little chrome handle. I hope you find something that works well for you. I truly think an SR20 would be a fine aircraft for your mission. Quote
Ftlausa Posted August 28, 2015 Report Posted August 28, 2015 I did buy a plane with a prop strike history, but it was a tow bar strike and the engine was overhauled as a result. The engine had also run for a 1000 hours since without incident. I was comfortable with that. I don't think I would be as comfortable with the damage history of the plane you are looking at. A gear up is a hard prop strike, and the absence of an overhaul and very limited operating history would make me nervous. A gear up history will stay with the plane forever. My 2 cents. Quote
chrisk Posted August 28, 2015 Report Posted August 28, 2015 I for one agree with cruiser. I would not buy an aircraft with a damage history such as a gear up. My feeling in this regard may not be logical to everyone, but I have spoken with lots of aircraft owners who feel and act the same. That is why I have never bought the argument that the value diminution evaporates over time. There is a distinct segment of the market which are not takers at any price and that has to negatively effect value. When planes get to be 30 or 50 years old, there are many factors in its value. Damage history is a factor, but if we are talking about a simple gear up in a Mooney, that is minor damage history. It's not a whole lot different than getting an elevator re-skinned for hanger rash after you get past the engine and prop. Take a hypothetical case. Two identical planes. One has a 40 year old prop and no damage history. The other had a gear up and now has a 5 year old prop. Assume both planes had the engines overhauled 5 years ago (after the gear up). The plane with the newer prop may actually be more desirable. Other damage like hail, off field landings, and a gear collapses potentially cause a lot more damage to the airframe than a gear up. They are also less common and I can see them having a longer effect on value. But a gear up 2500 hours ago and 2 overhauls ago isn't going to effect value significantly. The condition of the engine, airframe, and avionics are way more important to most buyers. --But for those that want a plane with no damage history, be wary. I've seen plenty out there that don't have a damage history. They just have a history of an engine over haul, new prop, and 337 for a belly skin all within 3 months of each other. --I kid you not. When I was shopping for my plane, I found plenty of these where the owner honestly though his plane had no damage history. 1 Quote
Shadrach Posted August 28, 2015 Report Posted August 28, 2015 ^^^^ this!!! Anyone can say "no damage history". People can also elect to "misplace" a log book sticker before it makes it into the logs. Current condition is far more important than what did or did not make it into the logs in 1986... There will always be those with the hardline attitude. It shrinks the market for them considerably. How long did it take all of you NDH guys to find a virgin to marry? 2 Quote
Marauder Posted August 28, 2015 Report Posted August 28, 2015 How long did it take all of you NDH guys to find a virgin to marry? Finding her wasn't a problem, inflating her on the other hand did take some time... Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 4 Quote
Bravoman Posted August 28, 2015 Report Posted August 28, 2015 ^^^^ this!!! Anyone can say "no damage history". People can also elect to "misplace" a log book sticker before it makes it into the logs. Current condition is far more important than what did or did not make it into the logs in 1986... There will always be those with the hardline attitude. It shrinks the market for them considerably. How long did it take all of you NDH guys to find a virgin to marry? Broken in and broken are two different things! 1 Quote
Shadrach Posted August 28, 2015 Report Posted August 28, 2015 I did buy a plane with a prop strike history, but it was a tow bar strike and the engine was overhauled as a result. The engine had also run for a 1000 hours since without incident. I was comfortable with that. I don't think I would be as comfortable with the damage history of the plane you are looking at. A gear up is a hard prop strike, and the absence of an overhaul and very limited operating history would make me nervous. A gear up history will stay with the plane forever. My 2 cents. That's odd. My prop clears the factory tow bar. You could taxi around with it scraping the ground. Quote
Shadrach Posted August 28, 2015 Report Posted August 28, 2015 Not if its hooked to a tractor True, but you'd have to pretty complacent to hit the starter with a tractor in front of you... Quote
Shadrach Posted August 28, 2015 Report Posted August 28, 2015 Finding her wasn't a problem, inflating her on the other hand did take some time... Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Sorry Chris, but I've heard that each is inflated and tested at the factory before going out the door... Quote
Mooneymite Posted August 28, 2015 Report Posted August 28, 2015 I hesitate to post on this thread because "prop strikes" are an emotional subject. Everyone has his own belief on the subject because of the serious nature of a prop strike. However, I would like to make the point that not all prop strikes are created equal. If you read the FAA/Lycoming literature, anything (other than air) that slows the rpm is technically a prop strike. It is mentioned that grass that causes the rpm to drop constitutes a prop strike. When you combine that with the many variables of high power/low power strike, sudden stoppage/not-so-sudden stoppage and so forth, it makes sense that not all prop strikes will necessarily require a complete engine tear-down/crankshaft magnaflux and so forth. If you taxi your plane into tall grass at idle and the engine suddenly quits, that's a prop strike. However, I think a lot of A&P's/IA's would feel comfortable with doing the inspection required by the AD and replacing the gear retaining bolt and lockplate with new. This only requires the opening of the accessory case on an O-360. If there is no damage to the gear retaining bolt and the small alignment pin and the gear checks out, this is pretty strong evidence that all is well. The other aspect of this subject which is dark is that many (MANY!) prop strikes go un-noticed, un-reported, un-inspected and the next owner has just bought himself a potential engine failure. My next door neighbor crashed his Cessna when the engine quit; the FAA determined that the retaining bolt had been damaged/never replaced after an undocumented prop strike years prior. Happily my neighbor was not badly hurt, but the plane was a write-off. Yes....scary. Quote
Ftlausa Posted August 28, 2015 Report Posted August 28, 2015 With respect to unreported prop strikes, as a case in point there is a guy at FXE that is somewhat infamous that had a Piper that he struck the prop on, and instead of doing a teardown he switched out the prop and promptly listed the plane for sale. It's sad, but it happens. Caveat emptor. Quote
Guest Posted August 29, 2015 Report Posted August 29, 2015 Just this evening I lifted a 172RG which landed gear up off the runway. The prop blades are mangled, one is very loose in the hub to the point of falling out. Needless to say the 700 hour engine will come out for complete tear down and inspection and compliance with the AD and associated SB's, as this is a real prop strike. I would be very surprised if the crank is damaged as a result. The airframe has very little damage and will be an easy fix. Clarence Quote
jetdriven Posted August 29, 2015 Report Posted August 29, 2015 Until you find out those lower cheek cowl sections are 35 grand each. LMK. Quote
jetdriven Posted August 29, 2015 Report Posted August 29, 2015 Keep in mind this is the same A&P who maintained his previous Mooney M20C, which was totalled after the landing gear lever came out of the socket and tthe gear collaped. 1 Quote
kommers Posted August 29, 2015 Author Report Posted August 29, 2015 Gentlemen, I thank you all for sharing your thoughts with me. Your input was priceless and helped us reach the verdict: we decided not to buy this airplane. Personally, I would probably take a chance but my wife who was in the left seat of our 20C when its gear collapsed is scared and pscyhologically traumatized enough so she wants to play it the safest way possible. So, back to square one and actually even further back... All of a sudden, I realized that aside from finding a good plane I have another issue to deal with: finding a new insurance. My insurance agent no longer replies to my e-mails since I informed him about my desire to buy another plane. I take it as an indirect way of him saying "you already caused monetary damage to the underwriter so get outa my face". I had the insurance through him for just under 3 years and this is my first plane and first insurance. Yes, I know I should have started with Skyhawk 172 but I started right out with Mooney and had some issues finding the company that would agree to insure the green pilot like me. Now, 3 years later, I have a totalled Mooney behind me and even though I wasn't flying on that day, I was still a main policy holder. This makes me wonder if my name is now on the black list with insurance companies since my insurance agen aparently doesn't want to re-insure me. I am afraid that I may find myself in the situation when I invest hefty amount in 20J that will become a ramp queen because I won't be able to secure insurance policy for it. Quote
Guest Posted August 29, 2015 Report Posted August 29, 2015 I'd be surprised if you can't find affordable insurance, a landing gear collapse on roll out is quite different than forgetting it completely. Writing off a C model is chump change to any insurance company. Find a new broker who will shop it to the market for you, if there is resistance from them, pitch them some new/additional training with Mike or Don etc. Clarence Quote
Hank Posted August 29, 2015 Report Posted August 29, 2015 Kommers, when I relocated last year, I didn't look for a local agent. I just called Falcon Insurance directly and saved myself about 20%. They know Mooneys and Mooney pilots. Give them a call, you may be pleasantly surprised. Quote
Robert C. Posted August 30, 2015 Report Posted August 30, 2015 Kommers, when I relocated last year, I didn't look for a local agent. I just called Falcon Insurance directly and saved myself about 20%. They know Mooneys and Mooney pilots. Give them a call, you may be pleasantly surprised. +1 for Falcon Quote
Tommy Posted September 1, 2015 Report Posted September 1, 2015 I am pretty sure if you are willing to pay, there will always be brokers happy to rob you (I say rob because it wasn't your fault that your previous plane was totalled but they don't really give a shxt). Some would say you are too cautious, otherwise would say you are mad to even consider looking at it! At the end of the day, flying is an inherently risky business so stayed informed and equipped yourself with good advice and training! Happy hunting! Quote
Guest Posted October 13, 2015 Report Posted October 13, 2015 Just this evening I lifted a 172RG which landed gear up off the runway. The prop blades are mangled, one is very loose in the hub to the point of falling out. Needless to say the 700 hour engine will come out for complete tear down and inspection and compliance with the AD and associated SB's, as this is a real prop strike. I would be very surprised if the crank is damaged as a result. The airframe has very little damage and will be an easy fix. Clarence Well the crankshaft for the 172RG has returned from testing with no resulting damage. Lycoming cranks are way tougher than McCauley propellers. Recently I retrieved a Cessna 140 from the runway after an engine failure on departure. The pilot managed to glide back to the runway and landed downwind. It seems his engine had a prop strike some time ago which was never disassembled for inspection and testing. Quote
jetdriven Posted October 13, 2015 Report Posted October 13, 2015 Classic 45 degree shear failure due to torsional overstress in the past. Quote
Guest Posted October 13, 2015 Report Posted October 13, 2015 Classic 45 degree shear failure due to torsional overstress in the past. It sure is a classic example. The airport maintenance department found the prop and crank laying on the road at the end of the runway. Luckily no one was hurt. Clarence Quote
carusoam Posted October 13, 2015 Report Posted October 13, 2015 How much torque is produced by our typical engines? I am most interested in the 310hp version of the IO550, of course. Is that value documented somewhere? Best regards, -a- Quote
Marauder Posted October 14, 2015 Report Posted October 14, 2015 Classic 45 degree shear failure due to torsional overstress in the past. It sure is a classic example. Clarence I like it when you guys talk about overstress, reminds me of work. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote
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