Thoughts on purchase of M20C?

[ryoder]

I would go over there with your tech, help him if he needs help with the jacks and such. It sounds like he's a responsible guy since he wants to drag his jacks up there. I'd also keep the owner out of the guys hair, go grab a coffee with the owner and let the guy work, and don't be to buddy buddy with the owner. From experience, having an owner and future owner looking over my shoulder, while both are emotionally evolved, is not the best working environment to preform the inspection. I don't mind it, but it really slows things down if the owner is chatty. Have fun, but be 100% prepared to tell the owner "have a nice day" and walk.

-Matt

A chatty airplane owner? No way.

[Hank]

Check with Falcon for insurance. If you want, I'll PM my agents' contact info.

[ryoder]

$1500 a year is pretty good as a newbie. I paid $1600 through aopa my first year.

[RobertGary1]

All brokers should give the same quote as they quote the same companies. But avoid calling the insurance co's directly (like Avemco) because they don't shop your policy around. They only quote you their product.

[Raptor05121]

Okay, here we go. The owner was adamant about not flying it the 40 miles to my airport without insurance. So we loaded jacks, tail weight, and 25 gallons of fuel into the back of my F-150. We headed out there and spent the better part 5 hours opening everything up and poking around. The entire belly came off as well as tail cone and access panels on the side. We poured 25 gallons into the left wing and got to work. We first noticed that the belly hadn't been opened in several years. Plenty of dirt and grime an inch thick. Some small areas of corrosion around screw heads, etc but nothing major. Spar looked clean. Looking into the left tank, there was previous blue staining everywhere. We cleaned it up and determined it to come from a small area in the bottom seam and wall joint by the fuel line. Drain the fuel and then into the right tank. Same problem in the same area. We weren't surprised because of the fact he has been operating off a grass strip for 18 years. Over the course of an hour, it soaked a spot about the size of a silver dollar.That's the only big ticket thing. There were a list of small squawks. The over-centers needed some adjusting. Cowl flaps were loose and needed new connector joint (cant remember what they were called). Same for nose gear doors. We opened the tail and saw a little bit of play. Aileron rods were loose with the same connectors as the cowl flaps. The previous owner was smart enough to keep the previous two oil filters so we took those back with us and plan on cutting them open tomorrow.

On the way home, the slave cylinder in my manual transmission decided to finally give out so we spent three hours getting a tractor from the owner and towing my truck back to his hangar. Luckily my friend followed me in his car so we had a ride home. But now I have to go tow my truck 45 miles and drop the transmission to replace the slave cylinder. Small bump in the road.

I got to cycle the gear a few times. I was wayy to gentle with it. And I felt the resistance about halfway up, resulting in the gear not latching. I had to give it a few good oomphs to get it to lock to where my fingernail wouldn't get in there. Per its previous W&B, the aircraft has a 1,006lb useful load. And I see a few things I wouldn't mind removing. So with full tanks, that will carry myself, my GF, my best friend and his wife with 0 luggage. Or we can lose some fuel and carry bags. So I'm happy about that.

On the way home, my IA told me basically what I've just said. He said we can seal that bottom seam and that combined with sticking to a paved runway should clear up the seepage. If it gets me two years, I'd be happy because then I'd just go down south and have them both completely resealed. We have the logbooks and will spend a couple hours combing through them, but they look very thorough. I asked what he thought an annual would run, and he said about $4,000, and the plane would be safe and trouble free from the problems we saw today for a little bit. I'm thinking this might be worthwhile. I'm going to sleep on it, talk to the old man and see where we are. But I'm 90% sure I want to go with it. Time for pictures.

Departing the home base all packed up (the Aero Commander in the background has dual Chevy big-blocks in it, hence the EXPERIMENTAL on the doors).







Inside left tank:











 

[Raptor05121]

It looks so clean with the gear up







We were pretty busy so I just snapped a couple random shots and kept assisting him








 

[Raptor05121]

Inside the pilots side access panel on empennage (ELT is removed for new battery)





Looking back





This was neat. Apparently one of the previous owners hid a set of keys on an access panel should he lose his.





Compression test. 79-78-78-76

[carusoam]

The part I like best...

The owner doesn't want it to fly without insurance.

Realism. No need to risk everything to save a few bucks.

There is a thread or two covering the issue of flying without insurance. It could be financially suicidal.

The other part I like...

The hide-a-key location. That cover comes off at annual. Nobody else is going to come across it in the field.

Did the panels in front of the windshield come off? That is where the break fluid reservoir is often hidden. See when that was changed last.

I'm glad you gave the explanation on the experimental twin in the background.

Good luck with the truck,

-a-

[MB65E]

Looks pretty decent. The tanks will leak eventually. The metal in the older cams I think is better than some of the later run cams. I think having cash on hand (5-10k) for the first few years will be a necessity. Any corrosion in the wheel wheels, spar caps, or steel tubes?

Sleep on the question "Do I have the cash to keep it flying"? If so then I would buy it.

-Matt

[Raptor05121]

No we didn't remove the panels in the front. I actually thought about it given he has a com antenna up there (I would like to move it later on). Matt, no corrosion anywhere we could see sans a few spots where screws held body panels on. This owner has had it hangared for 18 years, as well as the previous two owners. He said it has sat outside for maybe a dozen nights and that's it. I could talk him down to 18k, put 5k down on annual and have 5k cash reserves for the next year for things that pop up, I think I'll have a sweet little ride come next annual.

[MB65E]

Sweet! If you had 5k in cash that should do it. But Don't use the money to upgrade anything unless it's a safety issue. Save it for the first few years.

Enjoy it!

-Matt

[Shadrach]

Alex,

 

I am surprised that you found a plane that clean, that close, at that price.  I stand by what I said with regard to building wealth, but $18K is not going to kill you (it's what comes after the 18K that worries me)... Incidentally, does anyone know what year they started corrosion proofing the fuselage?

[mooniac15u]

Alex,

 

I am surprised that you found a plane that clean, that close, at that price.  I stand by what I said with regard to building wealth, but $18K is not going to kill you (it's what comes after the 18K that worries me)... Incidentally, does anyone know what year they started corrosion proofing the fuselage?

 

My 1963 M20D S/N 110 was treated but this one with a later serial number was not.  Perhaps mine was treated after it left the factory.

[Raptor05121]

The current owner is retired and is wanting to move to the mountains. He told me he has sold his home and property on the airstrip. He needs to sell the plane before he can leave. While we were doing the prebuy, he was pulling out plenty of stuff. He is done flying. He says he is giving me his brand-new life vests from when he went to the Bahamas, all the aviation posters, 4x headset, his pictures of the plane from back in the day. New 6-gal jerry cans for 100LL, an extra jug. Since I have gotten my PPL, I've always followed the notion that there are no such thing as deals in aviation. But with this, I'm thinking I have found someone that just is done and will take a hit. $18k purchase, a $5k annual and a couple grand operating expenses is not bad for a complex 4 seater, let alone a Mooney.

My best friend just got his 3rd class medical after dealing with problems he thought would regulate him into LSAs for the rest of his life, so he is interested in buying partnership maybe next year once he has his license (his first lesson was last week and he is the younger guy in the pictures). So that would be an extra plus.

[Raptor05121]

This is something that I'm trying to shop for:

The fuel cap is accessed by a door and flathead screw. Opening this, it has a thermos-style pressure cap. Except the ones currently on there do not fit (they're 1/4 too small to seal).

Is this the original system? The only replacement models I am seeing are for Pipers.

this is what is currently on the plane :

[carusoam]

65C had the yellow/green coating inside the tail cone.

The old fuel caps and the piece they were mounted in, may have been replaced. The 65C fill neck (the piece the caps are mounted in) was mild steel and would rust until failure. My C had plastic caps that are no longer sold for aviation purposes. They can be found in race car catalogs, though...

Replacing those parts is highly recommended. New ones are SS and expensive with matching flush caps.

It turns out that water in the fuel is to be avoided.

My outdoor Mooney would collect moisture in places it didn't belong.

There was no MS to inform me how much risk I was accumulating.

If the old owner gives you headsets and life jackets, you have negotiated well.. Proof that you don't need to be a killer in negotiations extracting the last dollar...

What's the next step?

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

There are still some nice guys left! You and the seller seem to be two of them.

[Raptor05121]

Still trying to get finances together. I want cash in hand and to be in front of him when I start negotiating.

[DXB]

Alex,

 

I am surprised that you found a plane that clean, that close, at that price.  I stand by what I said with regard to building wealth, but $18K is not going to kill you (it's what comes after the 18K that worries me)... Incidentally, does anyone know what year they started corrosion proofing the fuselage?

Yeah I wondered the same from the pix in the tail-  my '68 has the yellow zinc chromate paint inside.  Lack of it doesn't seem to have caused any issue here.  Certainly hope deal goes through and everything works out well for the buyer. 

[gsxrpilot]

Show him $15K in cash with an extra grand in your pocket for negotiating room. He's not gonna want to start the process all over again.

 

Some advice that was given to me prior to my first Mooney purchase... For the seller it's an emotional event, for the buyer it should be all business. 

 

I hope it works out for you, you get it for the right price and it turns out to be a great airplane.

 

Then come join the Mooney Caravan and learn how to fly it like the POH never intended ;-)

[Raptor05121]

Yes. Next year's Oshkosh will be a FOR SURE thing.

[ryoder]

I didn't negotiate on my C because the 20k cost of entry was more than fair especially after he put 4k into the annual. Yours is out of annual though. Shame on him for letting that happen. If it were in annual it would command a larger market as many won't even look at an out of annual airplane.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Shadrach]

Everything is negotiable. I understand why one might let a plane that is not being flown fall out of annual. It's the smartest move from a cash flow standpoint. An annual does nothing to ensure that the aircraft is preserved, storing it in doors out of the elements is the best way to ensure its preservation. If the plane has flown 5hrs since its last annual, why spend $1800 to inspect it unless one has a buyer? It's conceivable that a plane could sit on the market for 2 annual cycles or more if it's priced wrong. Almost any type of equipment should be bought on condition and time in service; if the plane is solid an annual at sale time becomes part of the negotiation.

If this thing is as clean and corrosion free (both airframe and power plant) as it looks and the transaction is in the range discussed, then Alex has really gotten a lot of performance per dollar.

[bonal]

Mine was through an estate sale by a broker that really limited the options for the pre buy the plane was in annual but turned out that meant little as there was many airworthiness items needed fixed when I had it in for first annual.  Overall I did OK as there was nothing that could not be fixed but it cost a Sh** Load to get it all done.  my opinion is an annual is only as good as the IA signing the books.  If I ever see that guys name on any post wanting recommendation believe me you wont here the end of it.  As it is I hold my disparaging comments.

[RobertGary1]

Just like with a car, your opinion of what needs to be fixed is unlikely to be the same as the sellers. We're not buying new planes here so these planes have some wear. Aside from provable airworthiness issues, most everything else really comes down to owner preference.

 

-Robert