Flying for the airlines?

[FloridaMan]

You guys that fly for the airlines suppose I've got a chance at transitioning careers and flying for the majors? I'm concerned that I might be a little on the old side for a career change. Although it also seems that the majors are a bit top heavy and there may be a demand in the coming years. When I was working a technical contract at Koch Industries out in Kansas, I stayed at the same hotel where lots of airline crews stayed. The Southwest crews seemed to have the most fun out of any of them. 

 

Is flying for an airline something that's worth doing or enjoyable? I've had NetJets pilots tell me to not ever consider flying for a charter operation. 

 

I'm 34, have perfect vitals and eyesight, but am around 10 lbs overweight according to the BMI charts (6'1 @ 195 lbs). I graduated with my bachelor's in business at 19 (paid for by my father's social security after he passed away) and have been on my own since. Flight time wise, I'm in the neighborhood of 1000 hours, instrument rated, passed both my commercial and ATP written exam back before the ATP cutoff. Never been to jail, no FAA incidents, DUIs, or anything that I would consider to be a liability for an employer. I fly around 40 hours a month and should be able to get in under the wire for the ATP practical with the 1500 necessary hours. I'm not sure if the airlines offer the ATP to candidates or if I have to get it on my own, but I'm thinking that it might be safer to do it on my own terms and schedule. 

[Danb]

Antares I have 3 pilots that fly for major airlines and 4 that fly for charter companies (I'm a CPA) the three for the airlines are all younger guys and the charter guys are older and they fly on there own sch. about 20 hrs per week, kind of like a second retirement. The only guys that have complaints are 2 of the ATP's for major airlines both in the Us, the third flys for Luftansia and lives in Denmark fly's a wide body and was just made captain and he loves it..BTW he is the only one making a high income, this is most likely of no help but what I know of my clients, I also have a few CFII that love the teaching and would not consider  the Majors all over 10000 hrs 2 do check rides for the FAA..

[cliffy]

Take a realistic look at industry before you decide. You will have to 'pay your dues" before you ever get on with a major. You will need turbine time and that comes with flying for some smaller commuters. They typically have very low pay and bad scheds. Majors can't use you until you get more time and experience. Do some digging on the internet and you'll find out what new hires at the majors have for qualifications. South West seems good from an employee stand point ( I have friends there) but they all have their good and bad points. There are a lot of good corporate jet jobs but again its all in who you know (networking) and your experience level. You have a ways to go before you are "acceptable" but if you work at your ratings and get some turbine time it can be done.

[jetdriven]

You can easily get on with a regional if you are close to ATP mins. They are hurting for pilots. Just be prepared for several years in the right seat and 20K to start, 35-40K topped out as an FO with perhaps a ten year upgrade. Commuting to reserve and 8 days off a month for a year or two is also a strong reality.

After 2-3K total time and a thousand turbine PIC the majors and National LCC like Spirit will look at you. They don't have a pilot shortage. It's just a long road that's filled with divorce, low pay, and a furlough or two. If you are ok with that, then go for it.

[fantom]

Alan, really....really?

 

It will be a long tough haul with no guaranteed gold prize at the end. Figure a year to get on with a regional at about $22K a year, and possibly 10 years to even have a shot at a Major, so it could be 15 or 20 years before you're in the left seat and good money. Be very sure you want it, and are totally committed, before jumping in, IMHO. The life ain't that romantic and the girls don't go for airline pilots...they like fighter jocks.    

 

1 Corinthians 13:11 - When I was a child, I spoke like a child, thought like a child, and reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up my childish ways.

 

Good luck with whatever you do.

[ryoder]

Why not cfi?

[Danb]

Ryan..a great way to build time and have fun..

[par]

I don't agree with the numbers mentioned above for the regionals and here is why. The industry is changing due to self inflicted wounds that will really begin to fester in the next 3-5 years. I am in a similar situation as you but just about all of my 800hrs is turbine time and most of it is PIC. If I can fly some more with the military, I will continue but should I get out in the next couple of years and go the airline route, I will also have to "pay my dues" to get hired by the majors. Getting out of the military at around the age of 35 without a retirement will leave me with several options. Unless I just get really lucky and start a business with a golden egg laying goose, it will take me at least 5 years to match my current pay climbing the corporate ladder, which is absolutely undesirable.

 

With this in mind, the wave of airline retirements and lack of qualified ATP aviators that is about to occur, I think I could make it to a major with my current experience within 3 to 4 years. Flying is what I love and I am coming to the realization that it is the only thing I want to do in life. Therefore the decision is easy for me considering the hardship. If you want to go the airline route, you will probably face a slightly steeper climb based on your current experience but I will say this, there hasn't been a better time to get into the airlines in well over a decade. The upswing of the airline cycle is coming up and I can only imagine there will be another decline at some point in the future (there always is). If you want to get in, do it now and get your "number". If you haven't already, google "airline pilot central" and start reading the threads. 

[ryoder]

Nice write up Daver. If I had three or four lives one of them would be a cocky F15 jock who moved on to corporate flight duty of some sort. I'll have to be content managing mobile development at a fortune 100 company and looking out the window wondering if I could break out of the overcast layer to smooth air in my C.

[bonal]

As I've said on another thread about what would your ideal flying job be. Working for Cal Fire. But of course it is seasonal

[ryoder]

My half brother works for a regional and hates it. He says flying for passenger comfort on the same routes with all the automation is not fun. He says what I do is real flying. Luckily he just got hired for a new job where he flies a 737 with surveillance personnel and equipment over top of the bad guys in the Middle East. He is looking forward to it.

I think it was a 737.

[par]

My half brother works for a regional and hates it. He says flying for passenger comfort on the same routes with all the automation is not fun. He says what I do is real flying. Luckily he just got hired for a new job where he flies a 737 with surveillance personnel and equipment over top of the bad guys in the Middle East. He is looking forward to it.

I think it was a 737.

While those jobs pay a good amount, I say no thanks. The possibility of being shot down or captured by the scum that lives in that part of the world without the same protection afforded to the military just doesn't sound appealing. Next, I'm getting out because I've done enough deployments to last me a lifetime. Being away from family as an airline pilot and being away on a deployment thousands of miles away are two entirely different things. At this point, I'll gladly do the former. Also, the same automation that takes you from one airport to the other over the US will be used to do countless circles in the sky over the same spot for hours on auto pilot....talk about exciting. To each his own. 

[ryoder]

Ill let you know if he likes it or not. He said there will be hand flying. He hasnt actually started yet.

[Bob - S50]

WARNING !!!  Novel ahead !!

 

 

As mentioned, you'll probably need to get hired at a regional to build time, especially turbine.  But it should not take 10 years to get to the majors.  Probably only 2 to 4 years.  Pay at the regionals is bad but as someone else mentioned, they may have to start paying more because if they don't they will run out of pilots as they all go to the majors.

 

Once you get to the majors, as others have said, expect to pay your dues for a year or two.  Bad trips, bad schedules, and work every holiday.

 

After maybe two years or so, you can choose to be junior on a higher paying airplane and continue with bad quality of life or you can choose to be relatively senior on a smaller plane and have a better schedule.  I always liked the smaller plane and quality of life.  Besides, I got most of my flying time 1.3 hours at a time and my posterior is trained to get sore after that.

 

When looking at pay rates, take the hourly rate and multiply by 1000 to figure what you can make in a year.  Less if you fly a minimum schedule, and more if you are very aggressive.

 

Delta currently has a bit shy of 13,000 pilots.  5800 of them will have to retire in the next 10 years.  The last few years of that span will see about 800 pilots each year reaching age 65.  Now is a good time to get hired.

 

Probationary pay is $70/hour.  Second year pay is $100/hour +/- $10.

 

We use computer bidding.  Tell the computer what you want.  It then goes in seniority order and builds the best schedule it can with what is left at your seniority.  Once you have maybe 30% of your seat behind you in your base, you can usually get either good trips if you don't care when you fly, or the days off you want if you don't care what type of trip you fly.

 

Plan on 10 to 16 days of work each month depending on seniority and how much money you want to make.  If you commute, plan on another 0 to 5 days/month commuting, depending on the equipment you fly and your seniority on that plane.

 

If you are on reserve, plan on 17 or 18 days on call.  If you live in the base that's not bad though.  Only 7 of those days will be short call when you must be at the airport within 2 hours.  The rest of them you will get at least 12 hours notice so you can live a somewhat normal life in the local area.  Sitting reserve from May to September you will probably fly 15 days each month.  From October to April you might only fly 5.  Some pilots on reserve have to go back to the simulator every 90 days because they lost their landing currency.

 

Layovers are what you make of them.  They range in length from 9 to 96 hours.  Most are in the 12 to 16 hour range.  Delta pilots usually layover at different hotels than the flight attendants so if you want someone to eat with you only have one choice.  If you fly early and get done early, chances are you can eat dinner together.  If you get in after dinner, and the layover is long enough, you might go have a beer together if you are both so inclined (I'm not).  If you sleep in and fly late (my preference), you will probably be on your own the entire layover.

 

I bid #6 out of 180 in my seat (757/767 FO in Seattle after 25 years with the airlines) so I pretty much hand pick my trips and can bid any week off I want.  I don't care where I go or how long the layovers are.  I just want high value trips to minimize time away from home (about 6 hours/day or so) and no alarms clocks.  Can't always get that, but I try.

 

I will never be senior enough to hold the left seat in SEA or SLC on the 757/767 or A330.  I could hold a schedule in NYC or DTW.  I could be on reserve in MSP.  Haven't checked ATL but I think I could hold a schedule there.  I'm just a little junior to the junior captain at LAX.  If I was willing to commute (did for 21 years), I could be a captain in any base on something smaller.  They are putting the 737 into Seattle this summer and I could hold left seat on that if I wanted.  I was a DC9 captain for 11 years and my ego does not require enough stroking that I need to sit in the left seat.

 

I have one 13 day trip left, some days off, all my vacation I earned last year, then I'm retired.  I won't turn 63 until this summer, but we have the financial capacity to retire.  While I still like my job, I'm going to like retirement better.

 

How's that?

 

Any other specific questions, ask away.

 

Bob

[ryoder]

Why do the pilots stay at different hotels than the flight attendants.

[fantom]

Why do the pilots stay at different hotels than the flight attendants.

 

You're not married, are you?

[cliffy]

Bob, fantastic write up! To the point and absolutely accurate.

Your trip style is exactly what mine was. I left in my last month before 60. I was told by my CP I could displace anyone I wanted for the last 2 weeks (my line ended on the 17th of the month) but I passed. I was ready to pull the plug. Glad I did and I have had no regrets for 8 years now. Enjoyed it while I had it but don;t need it now.

To those contemplating and airline career- its a job like any other, all be it, a "good" job if you want to put up withe the issues. You pay your dues the entire time either when starting out for turbine time or for seat assignment or days off. The "Golden days" are gone in the airline industry (1960s to the 80s). Now it's suits in charge with quarterly profits to make. It's all in how you view your place in the wheel.

Bob, I hope you enjoy the free time starting next month!

[Jim Peace]

Not worth it IMHO for FO (First Officer) pay. Need to position yourself to make Captain.

 

I was hired at my current airline at 37 years old and coming up on 9th year pay.  I will never have the seniority for captain.  FO for life.  However I am compensated the same if not better than most narrow body airline captains just on pay and my retirement and medical is much better.

 

Are you telling me I should give up and quit and go fly for Spirit or American, etc....?

[par]

I was hired at my current airline at 37 years old and coming up on 9th year pay.  I will never have the seniority for captain.  FO for life.  However I am compensated the same if not better than most narrow body airline captains just on pay and my retirement and medical is much better.

 

Are you telling me I should give up and quit and go fly for Spirit or American, etc....?

 

Can you guys explain the inability to pick up captain? Are you saying that even if you work with the same airline until the age of 65, there will be enough folks who are younger but senior to you? Will this continue to be the case even with all forecasted changes in the airline industry?

[Jim Peace]

Are you saying that even if you work with the same airline until the age of 65, there will be enough folks who are younger but senior to you? 

In my company yes.  I may get lucky with the company making the schedules so undesirable that many FO's senior to me bypass the upgrade leaving a slot for me.  But when I am north of 62 or 63 would I really want to be the bottom captain in any fleet or base?  

 

Although the Captain and FO take the same check ride it is certainly a different skill set to put on 4 stripes, lots more to think about and be responsible for, hence the higher pay.  Learning those skills while making small mistakes along the way in your late 30's and 40's is one thing but having to do it in your 60's is another.  I have thousands of hours of PIC jet from another life and I can say that just being an FO over the last 8 or 9 years my captain skills have certainly degraded.  I can't imagine what they will be when I am in my 60's and expected to be an effective PIC .....

[cliffy]

When I started in this business 50+ years ago I had one driving desire.I wanted to be a Capt. at a new start up airline. I met that goal, twice. I was in single digits in seniority at both. Of course both went belly up after several years. I elected to stay single digit FO at the last airline for the last couple of years as a quality of life issue. Didn't want to commute to a Reserve Capt slot.

I too had thought at times of "should I have don something more meaningful in life" but I always wanted to fly. I'm sure I could have done better financially in later life by going another path but I did what I always wanted to do.

I wouldn't have gone to 65 if I had the chance. I might have done 62.

Now I fly my Mooney. I can go armed in the cockpit if I want. I enjoy nice lunches while airborne ( no more mystery meat), or find great restaurants at fuel stops,I set the schedule AND THE WEATHER!. I'm coming to the realization that I don't want or need to fly IFR anymore. I'm in no hurry so why worry about the pressure involved. Every day is Saturday. Sit back and enjoy the ride when you retire.

OH, yes, NO MORE BIDDING EVERY MONTH!

[bonal]

So as I'm heading home in smooth air at 10500 I hear NorCal approach talking to a Fed Ex Heavy and it made me think of this post. Don't know much about any of this so what about flying for the parcel companies. How does that work out.

Working for any big company is no different lots of bean counters and people making bad choices that employees have to suffer. Might as well fly beats an office or a cubicle any time.

[Jim Peace]

Don't know much about any of this so what about flying for the parcel companies. How does that work out.

In most of recent aviation history (since they have been around) the parcel companies, meaning FEDEX and UPS, were not the absolute best places to be, just ask any 88 hire at UPS and they will tell you stories of having to fight just to get water on the airplanes.  From 911 to about 2007, a brief moment in time they were the absolute best place to be and many pilots left the pax carriers to go there.  Those who went to FEDEX faired a lot better than those who went to UPS.  Especially those who went to UPS in 2006/2007 time frame.  Now here we are in 2015 and it is back to massive hiring at the majors and now even some who went to purple and many who went to big brown are wondering if they made a bad choice.

 

I heard up to three pilots at FEDEX recently left for one of the big 3.  UPS just had a 747 pilot FQS leave to go back to DAL and there are some younger union pilots who are contemplating on filling out an app for UAL or DAL.  Many who have retained seniority numbers at AAL and other carriers are thinking about making the move back.  Time will tell if they do.

 

Bottom line is the story is played out at both of those companies.  At FEDEX Fred will be totally out of the picture soon and the accountants will take over and change the culture.  At UPS the accountants have already taken over and safety is really not even concidered in corporate planning as much as you would think. All you have to do is view the video NTSB hearings of UPS1354 in BHM.  Plus scope and technology threats and undeclared hazmat and part 117 cargo cutouts and the beef stew out of Anchorage is enough to dream of the better days of flying a super cub out of Sky Field in Conway SC towing a banner......

 

 

There are horror stories about all airlines both pax and cargo but as we stand here today the better place to apply to is certainly the pax carriers.

 

The brief moment in time when parcel flying was great is now played out for up and coming pilots......just get on www.airlinepilotcentral.com and read the forums.....

 

Oh how is this for a classy move....I heard UPS just canceled the next two classes of new hires.  The next class to start was less then 2 weeks away and those pilots have already given their current employers 2 weeks notice of leaving......at least they know now what the future will be like if they press on still come aboard in the future.........

[bonal]

Thanks Jim for that like I said I know next to nothing on the subject. Some very informative comments and for me at 56 years and getting close to retirement certainly not an option.

[cliffy]

A friend just called and said that AA is hiring 600 in the next year.