How high can you take a M20C?

[Oscar Avalle]

I fly around a mountainous area, where MEAs are rather high. The highest I have taken my M20c was 14k... Anybody has gone higher?

[pinerunner]

If you're flying around mountains there may not be one, simple, good answer to this question. If you were to get into good lift you might get an astounding altitude and if you got into bad sink you might struggle to get 10,000 ft.  I was brought up around small mountains in Maine and the White Mountains and it mattered there.

 

My dad had a flatlander commercial seaplane pilot help him out for a weekend and he scared the pants off our customers and himself by flying on the downwind side of a short range of 3500 ft mountains. The air currents held him and his C180 (or was it a 185) seaplane just off the trees for most of the trip and it was turbulent too.  

 

I think if you think a little bit like a glider pilot you and your M20C will be in great shape. Local fliers in some of your favorite mountain spots will be able to help.

[piperpainter]

I've had my C all the way up to 18400 before. You don't have a lot of power but if you gotta do it ya gotta do it! 

If you aren't heavily loaded up you can plan on 16K as a cruising altitude. She does pretty good there. I've crossed parts of the country at 16K many times because it's the smoothest altitude or has a great tailwind. Of course you need O2 but there isn't anyone else up there so it's kinda nice! 

Hope this helps! 

[DanM20C]

I have had mine up to 15K a bunch of times and once up at 17K for a few hours riding some nice tailwinds.  When I was up at 17K I was alone and around 450lbs below gross.     

[WardHolbrook]

The problem with unplanned excursions above 10,000' msl is that frequently, the pilot doesn't have O2 available to use. I don't care who you are, once you go above 10K without being on supplimental O2 your judgement starts getting pretty iffy pretty quickly. As for the question of how high can you fly a normally aspirated Mooney M20C, I have no idea. I have flown a 28 hp ultra light and a 65 hp Aeronca Champ up to 17,500 ft using standard, off the shelf soaring techniques. I could have easily gone higher, but I just had a nasal cannula. I'm sure that, given the right conditions, you could coax a Mooney M20C much higher. Of course, that would be pretty much useless on a routine cross country.     

[Oscar Avalle]

  On 8/13/2014 at 3:39 PM, WardHolbrook said:

The problem with unplanned excursions above 10,000' msl is that frequently, the pilot doesn't have O2 available to use. I don't care who you are, once you go above 10K without being on supplimental O2 your judgement starts getting pretty iffy pretty quickly. As for the question of how high can you fly a normally aspirated Mooney M20C, I have no idea. I have flown a 28 hp ultra light and a 65 hp Aeronca Champ up to 17,500 ft using standard, off the shelf soaring techniques. I could have easily gone higher, but I just had a nasal cannula. I'm sure that, given the right conditions, you could coax a Mooney M20C much higher. Of course, that would be pretty much useless on a routine cross country.     

 

I agree with you that above 10k O2 is extremely important. It is incredible how tired and exhausted you end up after a 1 or 2 hour flight at 10 or 11K and how much fresher you arrive if you use O2.

 

Since I started flying around here I always take my O2 tank with me and use it if I am on a x-country flight. But you are hitting on one of my main concerns: some of the airways around here have MEA that are 15k or 16k. I have not used them yet because I have not taken my M20C so high... so my question was in line with how high should/could we consider taking our M20C on a x-country flight.

[WardHolbrook]

  On 8/13/2014 at 3:54 PM, Oscar Avalle said:

I agree with you that above 10k O2 is extremely important. It is incredible how tired and exhausted you end up after a 1 or 2 hour flight at 10 or 11K and how much fresher you arrive if you use O2.

 

Since I started flying around here I always take my O2 tank with me and use it if I am on a x-country flight. But you are hitting on one of my main concerns: some of the airways around here have MEA that are 15k or 16k. I have not used them yet because I have not taken my M20C so high... so my question was in line with how high should/could we consider taking our M20C on a x-country flight.

In my opinion, Pinerunner hit it spot on... "If you're flying around mountains there may not be one, simple, good answer to this question. If you were to get into good lift you might get an astounding altitude and if you got into bad sink you might struggle to get 10,000 ft.  I was brought up around small mountains in Maine and the White Mountains and it mattered there."

 

The MEAs are high for a reason. Just because you can coax an airplane up to its service ceiling (or even beyond) doesn't mean that you've got enough available performance to deal with the sink that also comes with flight in mountainous terrain. If you're IFR and struggling to maintain a 14,000' MEA what are you going to do when you encounter sink? Same question if you're VFR. It's not too difficult to come up with scenarios where the outcomes are very bad. Read the accident reports, they are not uncommon.

 

The is simply no good, fast, easy, rule-of-thumb on how to deal with this. This is where judgement and experience enter into the equation. Weather, winds aloft, and time of day all enter into it as well.     

[Seanhoya]

I echo the previous comments.  I flew up to North Tahoe years ago in my Mooney M20G and did some touch-and-gos there.  My main problem there with a 8500' DA was cooling - I was only looking at 200 FPM departures, and well over 450 degrees CHT (480, in fact) until I leveled off.

 

In terms of cruise, I spent four hours at 12,500' without O2 on a trip across America, and had a splitting headache afterwords.  Later, I had a possible hypoxic/hyperventilation episode at 12,500' without O2, and ever since, I have decided to fly with O2 at 8000' and above - period.  I have a portable bottle I fly with, and I arrive so much more refreshed on long cross-countries.  For what its worth, the military requires O2 above 10,000', and even the civilian recommendation is to use it above 5000' during night-time flying.  Because I am the single point of failure in the aircraft (I mostly fly alone), I think that it is worth the investment to keep me alert, and I contend that putting on O2 gives me a noticeable improvement in alertness even after about an hour at 8,000'.

 

In terms of max altitude, I think 12,500' or 13,500' is as high as I have ever gone, but like everyone has mentioned, it is the up and down-drafts that scare me the most and keep me visual in those conditions.  Another time, departing from Burlington, Vermont, I had an uncommanded 200 FPM decent climbing through 8000' because the downdraft exceeded my climb rate, and that was in IMC. 

 

I recognize that other pilots fly safely higher, but my decision is that the plane loves to fly between 6,000' and 8,000', and my body prefers lower altitudes, so that is where I spend 99% of my time.

 

Shoe

[Mooneymite]

Lasar posts a chart at:

 

http://www.lasar.com/userfiles/file/Mooney-Specification-and-Performance-Guide.pdf

 

which lists the 'C' service ceiling as 17,500'.

 

Of course "service ceiling" isn't the same as "how high can you go", but I wouldn't plan a cross country higher than that.

[Hank]

I took my C to 15,000 msl for an oxygen checkout with an CFII. Handling was very different from normal. I later calculated DA to have been 18,400. Climb was pretty poor. We did various emergency descents on the way back down. This was over the Ohio River along the OH, WV, KY state lines--not flat, not high terrain, but certainly heavily wrinkled.

[N201MKTurbo]

For 5 years I routinly flew my M20F over the continental divide from Denver. I would usually cross at 12500 or 13500.

 

I lived in Denver so I was aclimated to a higher elevation and never suffered any serious hypoxia. Even though after an hour or so at 13500 changing channels on the radio seemed like a lot of work.

 

Back in the early 80 when I was doing this, oxygen systems were few, hard to get and expensive. I found a flight attendants walk around bottle that I used, but it cost $25 to fill and there was only one place in Denver that would fill it.

[WardHolbrook]

All of you guys who occasionally find themselves above 10,000 ft MSL really should take the time to attend one of the altitude chamber courses offered around the country. Guaranteed, it will be a real eye-opener (actually eye closer ) and well worth the cost. I've been twice at the University of North Dakota, but I understand that the Air Force will get you in theirs at a very nominal cost (Free?)

 

Here's a link to the FAA website covering the training...

 http://www.faa.gov/pilots/training/airman_education/aerospace_physiology/

[Mooneymite]

I was a genius prior to all the altitude chamber training I got in the Navy.  However, after killing all those brain cells, I am now a certified moron.

 

Be careful.  There's a reason you get stupid at altitude.  I don't really think you need to experience it to avoid it.  If your fingernails are blue, you are hypoxic.

[WardHolbrook]

  On 8/13/2014 at 7:41 PM, Mooneymite said:

I was a genius prior to all the altitude chamber training I got in the Navy.  However, after killing all those brain cells, I am now a certified moron.

 

Be careful.  There's a reason you get stupid at altitude.  I don't really think you need to experience it to avoid it.  If your fingernails are blue, you are hypoxic.

They don't take civilians up anywhere near as high as they do military personnel. That being said, thank you for your service and your sacrifice (brain cells).

 

 People react differently. A person's reaction to reduced O2 can occasionally vary or change over the years - I know mine did. The one common denominator is a feeling of well being  - "I went up to 17,000 and I did just fine." Yeah, I'm sure you did, please tell me what other classic symptoms did you exhibit? Some people will sit there fat, dumb and happy until the lights suddenly go out. Some people will do this, other people will do that. It's important to know what your personal symptoms are. Mine frightened me - I don't like it that I think everything is perfectly fine then blamo, the lights go out. Hypoxia is nothing to mess around with. The training is important, even if it's just to the altitudes that they take you to as a civilian. 

[N201MKTurbo]

I'm a believer now. Back then I was a young broke kid with an airplane and a bunch of mountains.

 

I carry O2 on every flight.

 

Back then the first sign I would have is sweaty palms followed by blue finger nails.

[Z W]

My C model's performance was not very good above 10,000 ft.  I took it to 12,500 a few times.  Hot or heavy it would be lucky to get 250 FPM climb at that altitude.  I would not want to be in the mountains with it on a windy day.  E and F models do much better with their fuel injected engines.

 

You also have to watch the engine temps very closely taking off from density altitudes over 8,000 ft.  I did that once on a hot day in Sante Fe and had to lower the nose and climb out at about 100 FPM for a while to keep the CHT's out of the red.  The thin air really hurts the cooling, and the C model engine runs a little hot all the time.

[triple8s]

"]My C model's performance was not very good above 10,000 ft. I took it to 12,500 a few times. Hot or heavy it would be lucky to get 250 FPM climb at that altitude. I would not want to be in the mountains with it on a windy day. E and F models do much better with their fuel injected engines.

You also have to watch the engine temps very closely taking off from density altitudes over 8,000 ft. I did that once on a hot day in Sante Fe and had to lower the nose and climb out at about 100 FPM for a while to keep the CHT's out of the red. The thin air really hurts the cooling, and the C model engine runs a little hot all the time.

[Guest]

A friend of mine flew a normally aspirated RV 6 to just over 26000' a number of years ago. There was also a Mooney Mite flown to something near 20000' on 65 HP.

Clarence

[BigTex]

  On 8/13/2014 at 10:48 PM, M20Doc said:

A friend of mine flew a normally aspirated RV 6 to just over 26000' a number of years ago. There was also a Mooney Mite flown to something near 20000' on 65 HP.

Clarence

How's that even possible?

[WardHolbrook]

  On 8/14/2014 at 12:03 AM, BigTex said:

How's that even possible?

Very easy actually. I've taken both a 28 hp 2-cycle powered ultra-light and a 65 hp Aeronca 7AC Champ up to 17,500' by simply flying them like they were gliders. I also was able to get a Turbo Commander to maintain altitude and even climb a bit with the power levers at Flight Idle doing the same thing. 

[Hector]

When I fly above 9000 I notice that I always get sleepy. In fact, once while cruising at 10.5K I took a little nap (I was with me and myself). It was less than 5 minutes but it scared the %#€£ out of me. Now, nothing above 8500 without O2

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[FlyDave]

  On 8/14/2014 at 12:12 AM, WardHolbrook said:

Very easy actually. I've taken both a 28 hp 2-cycle powered ultra-light and a 65 hp Aeronca 7AC Champ up to 17,500' by simply flying them like they were gliders. I also was able to get a Turbo Commander to maintain altitude and even climb a bit with the power levers at Flight Idle doing the same thing. 

I flew with a guy from Mooneyspace in his E model in Aspen, CO.

We departed and climbed into a large bowl NW of Aspen and I found wave. We climbed to 16-17K at 400-500 fpm with the engine throttled back. He had no idea that could be done. My only regret is that we didn't have o2 .

I remember reading on the soaring newsgroup about an airline pilot flying over the Sierra's when suddenly the auto-throttles started pulling back. He knew what was going on (mountain wave) because he was a glider pilot. Mountain wave is something you really should understand before you end up in it. The turbulence it creates can overstress an airframe in the blink of an eye, or worse.

[DanM20C]

A few years ago I picked up a finger pulse ox meter. I use it every flight. What I found interesting was how different my tolerance to alt varied from day to day. One day I could be at 11k and have an o2 sat of 91 or 92%' a week later I could be at 9k and see it at 87%. I now use o2 (or a lower alt) to keep it at 91% or above. I noticed I could concentrate on taking slow, deeper breaths and get it to bump up a few %.

As for those mountain waves, I took my ercoupe from 8k to 14k with the engine at idle.

[WardHolbrook]

  On 8/14/2014 at 3:06 AM, FlyDave said:

I flew with a guy from Mooneyspace in his E model in Aspen, CO.

We departed and climbed into a large bowl NW of Aspen and I found wave. We climbed to 16-17K at 400-500 fpm with the engine throttled back. He had no idea that could be done. My only regret is that we didn't have o2 .

I remember reading on the soaring newsgroup about an airline pilot flying over the Sierra's when suddenly the auto-throttles started pulling back. He knew what was going on (mountain wave) because he was a glider pilot. Mountain wave is something you really should understand before you end up in it. The turbulence it creates can overstress an airframe in the blink of an eye, or worse.

Glider flying has many benefits that will carry over directly for power pilots and those skills really come in handy when your "bullet-proof" Lycoming decides it's had enough.

[Oscar Avalle]

  On 8/14/2014 at 5:52 AM, WardHolbrook said:

Glider flying has many benefits that will carry over directly for power pilots and those skills really come in handy when your "bullet-proof" Lycoming decides it's had enough.

or when you run out if fuel over the Atlantic like that Canadian passenger plane that glided and landed on the Azores islands several years ago.