Video from AvWeb re Mooney factory

[PTK]

Whatever we call it, bottom line is they ended production of an airplane at the peak of its refinement! The airplane that single handedly saved Mooney when they first introduced it!

Many people, myself included, believe this was a mistake.

I agree the market played a role. However by ending its production and going to long bodies they further restricted their offering to that market.

What did the market do? Turn elsewhere.

If they decide to reintroduce it at a sensible price point, I'm in!

[DaV8or]

Whatever we call it, bottom line is they ended production of an airplane at the peak of its refinement! The airplane that single handedly saved Mooney when they first introduced it!

 

Even Henry Ford had to give up on the Model T eventually. For many reasons outside the control of GA manufacturers, the cost of brand new, factory built, certified airplanes has risen to astronomical highs. Fortunately, there are still a few buyers out there for these planes. The problem is, when people are spending this kind of coin for an airplane, they expect bigger, faster and nicer than the 4 banger M20J.

 

To use a lame car analogy, It's like a company being forced by outside pressures beyond their control, to sell a Mazda Miata for $100,000. That company quickly learns that to remain palatable to the sports car buyer at this price point, it is a wise thing to spend a little extra in production and start making Porsche 911s instead. It's pragmatic marketing.

 

The dream of an affordable brand new airplane is now and has always been just that... a dream. Today with high labor costs, mountains of government regulations, crushing liability insurance and lawsuits to defend against, that dream is even further off. Unless GA can get real reform in the areas of regulation and litigation, the airplane will remain a rich man's toy. For the rest of us, there is antique/vintage/used and abused market and really, what I paid to buy and continue to pay to keep my '66 F is not really "affordable" to the vast majority of Americans.

 

Hey, build me a new J for $100,000 and I'll get excited too, but if we're going to dream, it's more practical to dream about winning the lottery and then the brand new Acclaim will be very affordable.

[rainman]

There is another approach to getting "sort of" modern J's. I've seen ads for completely refurbished Bonanzas for 1/2 the cost of new ones. Well if someone can take a solid J with a run out engine and original panel that they get for $60k, and put in new rigging, engine, avionics, interior, paint....can that be done for $350K? Would anyone buy them for that price? Well J owners who's in? Ray

[DonMuncy]

I think one of the biggest factors is the production costs. In order to sell any plane at a reasonable cost, you have to have an efficient, mechanized production process. In order to be able to afford to construct such a construction process, you have to sell a large number of airplanes. The only ones that can do that are existing, large volume folks like Cessna or Cirrus, or perhaps someone who could attract a TON of investment money (think Tesla +++). If Jerry Chen and his folks have that much money and belief, the new operation might get it done. If not, Mooney will remain a very small volume, very high price aircraft, and we won't see any reasonably priced version.

A reduction in the regulatory process can help, but I doubt it can really change things that much.

If the liability insurance costs are as high as the numbers I have heard, the elimination of that cost would go a long way, but that ain't gonna happen.

If someone can figure out a way to get enough people interested in flying, to sell 400 Mooneys a year, and spread the costs out over that production number, it might solve the problem, but I don't see that happening in my lifetime either.

[Bennett]

Can be done for well under $200,000. My J has new paint (ArtCraft) , new panel (GTN750, GRN650, Aera 695, LifeSaver electric AI, and a great deal more, a custom interior (Aircraft Designs), PowerFlow exhaust system, LoPresti cowl, and more. Many speed mods etc. she is essentially a "new" J and far under the cost if any potential newly factory built 201. AvWeb featured her under their "Refurbished" aircraft postings.

The big question: why buy new at at least three times the cost for the same performance, and interior space? With our annual inspections, and continuous maintenance, aircraft can be, and are, serviceable for many decades. Certainly no factory new airplane would have all the custom features I have had installed. Rather than build new Js, a factory refurbishment program would make more economic sense, but I don't see very many Mooney owners following my pathway. There are, of course, some notable exceptions here on Moonyspace, but not many.

[rainman]

Bennett, Pristine Aircraft or Plan-a-Plane do just what you did. Tell them which plane and features you want, and they find the airframe and start from bare metal and redo the plane to your specs. They've done several Mooneys for a lot less than $300K. After seeing George LeBeau's 252, and Lacee's Rocket, you're right about the fact that some Mooneyspacers are doing what you've done. Ray

[DaV8or]

Rather than build new Js, a factory refurbishment program would make more economic sense, but I don't see very many Mooney owners following my pathway.

 

This is the path to an affordable, factory "new" M20J. I agree a factory refurbishment program is something that Mooney should seriously consider. However, if they were to do it, they would have to go much further than you did Bennett. They would need to strip it all the way down and then refinish all reusable components and replace all things that could wear, corrode, or degrade with time. I think the finished product would have to sell well north of $200,000, but in a very real and practical sense, you would have a brand new M20J.

[ghovey]

New Cessna 172 is $364,000. Reducing production costs is difficult. Reducing regulation on already certified aircraft and parts=no benefit. Reducing product liability insurance? Lance Wilson estimated these costs at 75 k per unit including all turbo props and small jets so for Mooney the number is much smaller. Eliminating all insurance cost and you turn a $650,000 ovation into maybe a $600,000 Ovation. I can't remember how long the waiting list was for the 2008 Ovations, or for that matter a new Cessna 400, or a new Bonanza or Cirrus. There is very little demand which is why so few airplanes are built. And insurance and regulation won't matter unless you are willing to buy an unregulated, non insured airplane built in an overseas factory and engineered by people with no previous experience designing and building aircraft. How many people are putting their deposit down on that $200,000 single engine aircraft?

[ghovey]

The low hanging fruit in cost reduction has already been picked. You want to sell more Mooney's-improve the product while you control costs. Sell a 200kt cruise Ovation and a 250kt Acclaim. Continue to improve the interiors and the look of the panel, dress them in a great paint job and let those birds loose.

[Bennett]

This is the path to an affordable, factory "new" M20J. I agree a factory refurbishment program is something that Mooney should seriously consider. However, if they were to do it, they would have to go much further than you did Bennett. They would need to strip it all the way down and then refinish all reusable components and replace all things that could wear, corrode, or degrade with time. I think the finished product would have to sell well north of $200,000, but in a very real and practical sense, you would have a brand new M20J.

When I bought my J I had LASAR strip down the airplane "to the bones" and they replaced most of the wear parts including much of the gear parts, and installed new accessories like the vacuum pump, plugs, battery, belts, magnetos, plus tires, tubes, redid the rigging, sprayed in ACF 40, and removed all corrosion. I don't think a factory refurbishment would do much more to the hull itself. The new interior was totally rebuilt, including carbon fiber window frames, aircraft honeycomb side panels etc. all new sheet metal for the new panel, and ArtCraft's strip and paint is well beyond any Mooney factory paint I have seen. Anyone can do this by finding the right firms to work with, and the willingness to spend the money to achieve what they want in an aircraft. The only thing I didn't do was to replace the engine since it only had about 300 hours SMOH, with flow matched cylinders. If I had replaced the engine I still would have spent way less than than $250,000. A new Mooney would probably soon depreciate to the point that the change in value (realistic selling price) would not be much different to what I spent over that of its market value. If I bought a new Mooney, say a J, I would just start customizing it anyway with mods and upgrades. I'm sure those of us who have refurbished our Mooneys understand this.

[MB65E]

Hey, I'm just glad their making airplanes again! Having a company still in business, and not on some mothball program is better for everyone. Maybe we should all tell our bosses to buy a new Mooney!

[PTK]

When I bought my J I had LASAR strip down the airplane "to the bones" and they replaced most of the wear parts including much of the gear parts, and installed new accessories like the vacuum pump, plugs, battery, belts, magnetos, plus tires, tubes, redid the rigging, sprayed in ACF 40, and removed all corrosion. I don't think a factory refurbishment would do much more to the hull itself. The new interior was totally rebuilt, including carbon fiber window frames, aircraft honeycomb side panels etc. all new sheet metal for the new panel, and ArtCraft's strip and paint is well beyond any Mooney factory paint I have seen. Anyone can do this by finding the right firms to work with, and the willingness to spend the money to achieve what they want in an aircraft. The only thing I didn't do was to replace the engine since it only had about 300 hours SMOH, with flow matched cylinders. If I had replaced the engine I still would have spent way less than than $250,000. A new Mooney would probably soon depreciate to the point that the change in value (realistic selling price) would not be much different to what I spent over that of its market value. If I bought a new Mooney, say a J, I would just start customizing it anyway with mods and upgrades. I'm sure those of us who have refurbished our Mooneys understand this.

There's definitely a huge difference and a lot more desirable if the factory performs this if they decide to introduce it.

Anyone can go restore an interior or replace some parts. But they don't have the latitude the factory has and all that goes along with that latitude.

There'd be real and measurable value to a Mooney factory restoration just as there's to a Lycoming factory OH engine.

This would be interesting if they decide to offer it!

[Urs_Wildermuth]

Ok, so they have 2 high end aircraft which they can produce right away. So where is the entry level model?

Do they need to re-introduce the J for this? Maybe, but if we are talking efficiency, they better stay with one cell only and concentrate on offering that at a lower price. We might remember, the Ovation/Acclaim Cell was born in the Porsche Mooney, which had 217 hp. Well, and what has the O390 got? 210 hp. And there already is an STC to refit the O390 to the E, F and J model.

 

Then avionics? How about an Aspen 2500 equipped aircraft with dual GTN's rather than the G1000 in the entry level? Possibly with an S-Tec 55 instead of GFC700?

 

So you'd get a brand new plane with the long fusellage, an engine which by default can use Mogas (very important in Europe), UL91 and Avgas 100, 160 kts, 1000 NM minimum range and a payload comparable to the J. But it is bigger, nicer and newer. Price? Around 400k?

 

Then regain some weight by optimizing interior and manufacturing, something also the Acclaim and Ovation could profit from?

 

I'd say in the current market, all the new entry level plane has to be able to do is to be cheaper and faster and more economical as the SR20.

 

And before you tell me that there is no market for the entry level airplane, look at how Cirrus do it.

 

they have the SR20 which accounts for a very low percentage of their sales. Yet they keep it on. Why do you think they do that? Right, because they want people to walk onto the sales floor and be attracted by the low price of the SR20. How many of them THEN decide straight up to buy a SR22 is the different deal, but the all important marketing question is, HOW MANY first wanted an SR20 and would never have set a foot into Cirrus' sales room because they felt the SR22 is too expensive for them.

 

That is what my thinking is regarding that. Mooney needs the entry model in it's catalogue, certified and ready to be delivered. If it only sells 2-3 a year but as a result, the Ovation and Acclaim sell a lot more, then it still has a business case.

[DaV8or]

Ok, so they have 2 high end aircraft which they can produce right away. So where is the entry level model?

Do they need to re-introduce the J for this? Maybe, but if we are talking efficiency, they better stay with one cell only and concentrate on offering that at a lower price. We might remember, the Ovation/Acclaim Cell was born in the Porsche Mooney, which had 217 hp. Well, and what has the O390 got? 210 hp. And there already is an STC to refit the O390 to the E, F and J model.

 

Then avionics? How about an Aspen 2500 equipped aircraft with dual GTN's rather than the G1000 in the entry level? Possibly with an S-Tec 55 instead of GFC700?

 

So you'd get a brand new plane with the long fusellage, an engine which by default can use Mogas (very important in Europe), UL91 and Avgas 100, 160 kts, 1000 NM minimum range and a payload comparable to the J. But it is bigger, nicer and newer. Price? Around 400k?

 

Then regain some weight by optimizing interior and manufacturing, something also the Acclaim and Ovation could profit from?

 

You should grab a copy of Trade a Plane and get some prices off of there. You'll see that doing what you propose wouldn't even come close to saving you the $250,000 you suggest. (Assuming the new list price for an Ovation would be $650,000) This new Mooney, maybe the M20U (for under powered) would have to go through the entire certification process again. It would also need special tooling, parts inventory, documentation and a fair amount of R&D. Pretty hefty price tag to build and certify an airplane nobody wants.

 

I get the low cost leader concept, but I believe that once you step into the realm of paying over a half a million dollars for toy, you're going to be more specific in your needs and wants. If you can easily afford an M20U at a more realistic sale price of $550,000 what's an extra $100,000 to get the plane you know you really want? At some point, if you can't afford more than $550,000 you'll buy a previously owned Ovation, or Acclaim rather then settle for a lot less. Airplanes aren't really sold like cars. "Dealerships" can't afford to keep one of each model in the hangar. They typically have one plane and order what you want. There is no way they are going to stock a half million dollar turkey no one is going to buy until you sell it below cost just to get rid of the liability.

 

You mention Cirrus. The only reason Cirrus continues to make the SR-20 is flight schools. Of course now, they have their eye on Chinese flight schools. The dumbed down M20U would not make a very good trainer IMO. Expensive, under powered, hard to get in and out of and more expensive to maintain than their competition.

 

Mooney has tried the "step up" sales approach in the past with the M20D Master, the M10 Cadet and later the M20J Lean Machine. In all three cases, it was deemed a failure and these models had short lives. Again, the buyer at this price point says, why not spend a little extra and get the plane I really want? In the case of the Cadet, they were too late with too little to compete in the trainer market of the 1970s. Too bad Mooney didn't keep the plans, rights and fixtures for the Cadet, they could now put it on a tiny diet and have a Mooney LSA offering. Although I'm not so sure how great that market is anyhow.

 

I agree with you that Mooney, or any airplane company could really use a lower cost airframe for greater consumption, but the M20 isn't it. A whole new airframe needs to be designed and certified. I still have no idea why the Chinese bought Mooney. I suspect it was just a case of fat with cash and on a spending spree without thinking it through too much.

[jetdriven]

Can be done for well under $200,000. My J has new paint (ArtCraft) , new panel (GTN750, GRN650, Aera 695, LifeSaver electric AI, and a great deal more, a custom interior (Aircraft Designs), PowerFlow exhaust system, LoPresti cowl, and more. Many speed mods etc. she is essentially a "new" J and far under the cost if any potential newly factory built 201. AvWeb featured her under their "Refurbished" aircraft postings. The big question: why buy new at at least three times the cost for the same performance, and interior space? With our annual inspections, and continuous maintenance, aircraft can be, and are, serviceable for many decades. Certainly no factory new airplane would have all the custom features I have had installed. Rather than build new Js, a factory refurbishment program would make more economic sense, but I don't see very many Mooney owners following my pathway. There are, of course, some notable exceptions here on Moonyspace, but not many.

Did that include the cost of the plane and what are the engine times?

[Bennett]

Yes, I bought the aircraft for $85,000, with a 300 hour SMOH engine about two years ago. Airframe was approximately 3500 hours.

[carusoam]

Reality 102...

My next plane has probably been built already.

I'd really like a new one, but that has not been in the cards so far...

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

Reality 103...

If I have the good fortune to go the distance, I need someone to buy a plane from the factory with all the options.

Hopefully, I will be able to take it off their hands in the next economic downturn 15 years from now.

Bennet's methodology is inspiring! (both going the distance and flying a nicely updated Mooney)

Keep up the good work Bennett!

Best regards,

-a-

[RJBrown]

I think the "Idea" of a new J is wonderful! Many look back dewy eyed and sigh.

The reality of a J is ZERO. Nostalgia wont sell planes. Unless we can get a time machine to bring 1980 airfames onto today's production line for avionics there is no way to build one for less than those here seem willing to pay. 

 

I am not rich enough to ever consider a new airplane. The most I could ever invest in a plane is about $200,000.

No one will ever build a new plane I can afford.

 

BUT......

I will NEVER settle for the mediocre climb and speed of a J again. I will buy a Rocket and  perform like the guy with the Acclaim.

Even with my buget I wont fly low and slow again.

 

Does anyone here think someone dropping close to a MILLION bucks on a toy cares about the Economy of a J? He wants the fastest thing out there. He wants to fly fast AND high.

 Piper Matrix starts just under million, carries a bit more but goes slower. A Malibu is $1,200,000. Cirrus $600-760,000.

I believe a Mooney builds the best plane out there. I shudder when I think of fixing anything more than hanger rash on a Cirrus or consider the recurring parachute costs.

 

The market abandoned the J, not Mooney.

[fantom]

The market abandoned the J, not Mooney.

 

Agree that the new plane buyers did just that, since there wasn't a large price delta between a J and an R/M back in the late 90's, but the used market today for reasonably priced J's isn't bad. We won't be seeing any new J's at any price. That isn't what the Chinese purchased Mooney for, and they've said so in no uncertain terms.

 

Can't say that the used market is fawning all over Rockets, these days, even if several on MS are. Different strokes with few absolutes, except on a one-off basis.

 

The new owners of Mooney are going to build planes primarily for international, commercial, pilot training requirements, with the USA new GA market an afterthought at best, IMO.