Here's a thought about paint jobs

[Sabremech]

Hi Cliff Y,

Going back to a previous post you made in regards to the elevators. Where are you finding a requirement to check the elevator rigging with rig boards every 100 hours/annual inspection? I'm glad that you recognized that elevators can be removed without upsetting the rigging. I suspect more paint shops remove them from the horn than from disassembling the bungee assembly.

David

[cliffy]

If you read the 100hr/annual  inspection check list that Mooney puts out you will find it in there

 

http://www.deltaaviationllc.com/Nav%20Page/maint%20manual/Mooney%20100%20Hour%20Annual%20Guide.pdf

 

Check "Airframe Section, Item 4.  on (Rev 2007)

With A&Ps being required to follow manufacturers instructions, if they are available, and, needing to use a check list to do a 100 hr insp-  ?

 

There is no "recognizing" that the elevators can be removed without removing the bungee nuts ( that has always been blatantly obvious), the question was, when it was painted, who checked or asked how it was done and if it was re-rigged if the bungees were removed.  How  many owners (or even mechanics not Mooney savvy) even know of this issue (that is the point of my post, not to see how many can find another way to do it) and check into it before the paint job. The point here is education of a possible issue and having that knowledge to be proactive when one goes to paint.

 

I would be surprised if the "majority" of the shops removed them from the horn mount myself. Way too easy to pull them off with the 2 bungee nuts first and not run the risk of dinging new paint by having them flopping around. And, regardless, who can know for sure how they were removed unless one was there? Are they going to pull the horns off after the paint job and thereby run the risk of peeling the new paint around the mounts or are they going to pull them off before paint and try to paint the horns while hanging from the control tubes? And of the ones that don't remove from the horn until off, how many recheck rigging? How many shops have the board? Does anyone know of one shop that does?

Wouldn't t be nice if every owner had this information and they could ask the shop about this issue before paint? 

[Sabremech]

Hi Cliff,

You referenced exactly what I thought you would for your mandatory rigging check at 100 hour/annual inspection. If you look at the note right below item 7, you'll find an interesting little statement that contradicts what you're trying to impress upon us.

I use my maint manual checklist which has no requirement for checking the rigging of the flight controls every 100 hours or annual inspection. This checklist from my specific model of Mooney is what I am required to follow, not the checklist you referenced.

In regards to your concerns with elevator rigging after paint, is this really an issue worthy of more than one post? It's nice to know information for someone contemplating paint, but since it's not raining Mooney's after a new paint jobs, I think it's time for the next topic.

It's great that you want to help owners with maint and hopefully you'll continue to offer relevant information.

Thank you,

David

[cliffy]

It seems that I may have pricked a nerve with what I can only assume (by your number of postings) is the resident Mooney Maintenance GURU on this web site. Sorry!. I find it interesting that you take such great umbrage with a differing opinion. As one who has gone through almost 47 years as an A&P with nary a violation or LOI, I tend to feel the way I do things has seen me and my customers fairly well all these years.  I might add that the last time I was at an authorized Mooney Service Center they were using the exact check list I have shown as the one I use. Obviously, Mooney, in 2007, felt it necessary to revise their check list in an effort to do a better, more complete job, i.e,, safer.  If you don’t feel it is necessary for you to constantly improve your way of doing maintenance, that’s fine’ It’s your choice. I feel different. MY customers feel different. Either you want to do the best job you can or, your don’t. Service Bulletins are not mandatory unless connected with an AD so YOU don’t have to do them on YOUR airplane and that’s fine.  The check list I follow is not “mandatory” but I choose to follow it. The one in your book addresses minimum standards for a Mooney 100 hr. Many A&Ps have worked to only minimum standards for years and have never had a problem. Many don’t even make that threshold.

 

No, Mooneys are not falling out of the sky due to miss-rigged elevators, but that doesn't negate the fact that it should be asked about and checked if the elevators are removed by using the bungees. Many owners are interested in the “finer” points of keeping their airplanes in tip top shape. Why make it seem that they don’t need the information? Why argue about it?. 

 

You note that you want this thread to cease and that’s fine also. If you have moderator access, please delete this entire thread and my profile. I didn't realize that this web site was a “gottcha” site where folks were laying in wait to hammer anyone they don’t agree with. Not a very fun place to be or informative to those with a differing opinion.

 

Now, I have posted my credentials for all to see but I don’t see yours. Please do me the favor of posting your creds so we have a basis for comparison. I know from where my opinion comes from. I have no information on where yours come from.  

[Sabremech]

Hi Cliff,

I'm also an A&P/IA, pilot and aircraft owner. I'm not going to get into how many years I've been doing this as that's part of what I see as the issue with your approach on sharing information. I question you simply because you're not fully explaining what maint is required and why. We all want to be safe and perform the best maintenance we can and yes we want to improve.

You addressed exactly in your recent post how you should have in your first post, explaining what is required and the extra steps you take and why. Thank you for that. I certainly don't want you to leave, but simply change your approach from authoritative to more explanative.

I'm no guru and have plenty to learn. I do strive to be accurate in what I post. If you'd like more specifics of my background, send me a PM and I'll expand on it for you.

Thanks again,

David

[scottfromiowa]

We can look in a mirror, but often we only see what we want to see...

[kmyfm20s]

We can look in a mirror, but often we only see what we want to see...

LOL, that's funny! I'm handsome, smart, funny, a great maintenance expert and gosh darn it people love me!

No offense Cliffy, your just not coming off very humble with your contributions. Maybe a new thread with a new approach. I do appreciate your contributions.

[rob47v]

We can look in a mirror, but often we only see what we want to see...

Very good I like that and how true. An annual inspection in GA is nothing more that a highly glorified 100hr inspection in which you will open-up several panels. As per The mooney form 0100 rev in july of 2005 flight controls rigging has to be checked. I don't make this up I just fallow whats written. Anyhow common knowledge as we all know hit punt. Will and has alway taken us further in life. Like some here this is what I do for a living, its how I feed and give to my family. During rig what your looking for if the rig is performed properly is a positive end result, that being a affirm security and withing spec travel limits. If those are attained during the inspection then the actual rig in essence is good. Short story I had a bonanza if you want to see a funky rigged airplane buy one. Anyhow a friend of mine also had one, his would be all over the sky mine straight as an arrow. I always checked my rig hence travels right on the mark. His were horribly of the scale I quit flying with him end of story. Sorry all for chanting!          

[Sabremech]

Hi Rob47v,

 

 As per The mooney form 0100 rev in july of 2005 flight controls rigging has to be checked. I don't make this up I just fallow whats written.       

 

 

 

 From Mooney's checklist:

NOTE:

This sheet is a guide only -- refer to the specific model’s Service & Maintenance Manual for airframe, engine and propeller inspections

 

 

  Huh? Where's the requirement to use this checklist?

 

 Here's my point and I'l let it rest, If you choose to check the flight control rigging, that's great, but it is not a requirement.

 

 David

[rob47v]

Hi Rob47v,

 

 

 

 

 From Mooney's checklist:

NOTE:

This sheet is a guide only -- refer to the specific model’s Service & Maintenance Manual for airframe, engine and propeller inspections

 

 

  Huh? Where's the requirement to use this checklist?

True dear Sir but a guide is written by the manufacture to be followed not in any specific order unless other wise specified, but still to be followed to assure that such items are not overlooked or any discrepencies that might be hidden and not seen by the naked eyes. Sometimes this issues or any issue for that matter hid in the most inconspicuous that we just don't pay any attention to, or overlooked. With all the lawsuits that plague this industry, do to things being overlooked. Manufactures will write manuals inspection forms to protect them self. Wouldn't you do the same thing if it was your company to shed some of the responsibility off of you.         

[N601RX]

So do you force your customers to comply with every Service Bulletin that Lycoming and Mooney writes "MANDATORY" on?

[Sabremech]

Hi Rob47v,

 The problem I see with using the Mooney recommended checklist is that it pertains to all their models and it's setting you up for failure or overlooking something as so many items do not pertain to all models.

 I use the checklist in the inspection section of the maintenance manual for my specific model of Mooney (66 C). It may be the minimum, but I don't have to N/A a bunch of items and worry that I N/A'd an item that does pertain to my model.

 

 Do you worry that you may have missed an item becasue of using the one checklist for all models?

 

 David

[fantom]

 

.... An annual inspection in GA is nothing more that a highly glorified 100hr inspection....

 

The annual is paid licence to hunt....whose checklist (which is never COMPLETELY MODEL AND EQUIPMENT specific) is only a starting point.

 

Nothing can replace an experienced, through and Mooney knowledgeable mechanic, especially when combined with an involved owner.

[rob47v]

Hi Rob47v,

 The problem I see with using the Mooney recommended checklist is that it pertains to all their models and it's setting you up for failure or overlooking something as so many items do not pertain to all models.

 I use the checklist in the inspection section of the maintenance manual for my specific model of Mooney (66 C). It may be the minimum, but I don't have to N/A a bunch of items and worry that I N/A'd an item that does pertain to my model.

 

 Do you worry that you may have missed an item becasue of using the one checklist for all models?

 

 David

 

 

 

 

 

The annual is paid licence to hunt....whose checklist (which is never COMPLETELY MODEL AND EQUIPMENT specific) is only a starting point.

 

Nothing can replace an experienced, through and Mooney knowledgeable mechanic, especially when combined with an involved owner.

 

The check list which I'm referring to covers all models I believe. Aside from such specifics like landing gear, flaps, cowl doors and such and a few others, most all of these airplanes are quite alike, please don't beat me up, yes they are different but are much alike. The check list is to check the items then ref the specific manual to the specific model. Think of this like the aircraft I'm redoing at the moment. How many times do you read or know of someone who gear-up landed. Unless its a failure the checklist was either forgotten misread or not used. End result a gear up landing and then insurance hike. Sorry guy. I tech a lot of rigging on 757's 737, and other aircrafts and the one thing people do is become complicent. I'm no God I've done it also but it shouldn't be done. Boy do I have stories that would curl your toes.              

[cliffy]

At some risk, I thought I would forward the FAAs own hand book on Inspections. Always good for some light reading at night :-)

 

http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aircraft/amt_handbook/media/FAA-8083-30_Ch08.pdf

 

Under "Check Lists" it says,

"Checklists

Always use a checklist when performing an inspection. 

The checklist may be of your own design, one provided 

by the manufacturer of the equipment being inspected, 

or one obtained from some other source. The checklist 

should include the following:"

 

It goes on to include what should be included in any check list. It then goes on to say

under Type Certificate Data Sheets, as the last paragraph

 

"When conducting a required or routine inspection, it is 

necessary to ensure that the aircraft and all the major 

items on it are as defined in the type certificate data 

sheets. This is called a conformity check, and verifies 

that the aircraft conforms to the specifications of the 

aircraft as it was originally certified. "

 

Item 13 under "Type Certificate Data Sheets"  shows the proper control surface throws are included in a TCDS and they should be checked during a required inspection, just like all required placards listed need to be verified as being installed along with a compass correction card to ensure "conformity" to the TCDS.

 

I've included below a link to the TCDS for Mooneys. You can pull it up and track down to your particular model and read more information than you ever wanted to know about the certification of your airplane..

 

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/e74974516b2c5ee886257c3500689e02/$FILE/2A3_Rev_53.pdf

 

Just thought some here might want to know this information. You can spend hours reading this minutia.

[rob47v]

Very good dear Sir case and point well done.When it comes to flight controls I'm a pain just ask the guys I teach and work with. If it's not right it will not fly till then.