Return to Flying and Mooney?

[phecksel]

Been about 12 years.  Long time Mooney owners will probably recognize the family name.

 

Took me a long time to start flying, and it was about the time my parents started talking about selling their plane, that I finally started flying and buying the plane from them.  Would not trade those years for anything.  It really brought us close together over the next decade.  They had pretty much stopped flying all together, and I encountered some financial headwinds.  It was in my best interest to sell the plane... unfortunately the guy who bought it destroyed it on a landing.  Never did tell my parents.

 

My kids are grown up, and mostly gone.  Seeing CAVU in my financial future.  Went out to the airport to buy some avgas for the lawn equipment, and sitting on the ramp was this beautiful F model.  I was shaking just looking at the airplane, and intentionally did not walk over to it.  Worse thing in the world would be to find a for sale sign in the window.

 

Our family "C" was exceptionally fast, typically flight planned 150 kts, and generally beat that.  I became so accustomed to flying that ONE airplane, that a highly respected aviation writer CFII good friend had strongly recommended I got get my commercial... in something other than my Mooney.

 

After I sold the plane, I added up my expenses over a decade and subtraced my gains on the plane.  It was not a very good thing to do.  I could have bought a lot of first class vacations for that money, LOL.

 

Anyway, looking online, I'm seeing some incredibly low prices in today's market.  How much of the pricing is due nobody flying anymore?  How much is due to Chinese company purchasing Mooney?  How bad are factory parts to obtain?

 

Being completely out of the world for over a decade, have there been any significant changes that have taken place?

[N33GG]

Prices dropped long before the Chinese got involved.  Just my opinion, but I think it is a combination of less pilots (lots of old guys like me that are dropping out after decades of flying), rough economy, less friendly airspace, (eg. more TFR's complicate use of our airplanes), and higher costs of fuel and everything else associated with flying and aircraft ownership. 

 

Factory parts have been difficult to get for a while.  Good news is there are plenty of old Mooneys out there in salvage mode.  Nothing has been in what I would consider critical shortage.

 

I am on my 5th decade of flying.  Might go the LSA route before quitting altogether, might not.  Either way, there will be one more cream puff C Model on the market when I quit flying my Mooney.  Sure will miss it!

 

Welcome back!

[Glenn]

Prices dropped long before the Chinese got involved.  Just my opinion, but I think it is a combination of less pilots (lots of old guys like me that are dropping out after decades of flying), rough economy, less friendly airspace, (eg. more TFR's complicate use of our airplanes), and higher costs of fuel and everything else associated with flying and aircraft ownership. 

 

Factory parts have been difficult to get for a while.  Good news is there are plenty of old Mooneys out there in salvage mode.  Nothing had been in what I would consider critical shortage.

 

 

 

Welcome back!

+1

[carusoam]

Welcome back!

Fuel prices have made things financially challenging for a while, but things are looking up lately (or down for that matter...)

Will you be doing any flight training to get back in the swing?

Best regards,

-a-

[DrBill]

Regarding airplanes, I think the bottom was hit a year or more ago.  The big drawback now is the fuel price.  I have no trouble getting any part for my plane from the factory and the response has been EXCELLENT.  If they don't have it , the tell you where to get it.

I see prices for properly equipped aircraft (430W or 530W or better) starting to move up.  Those without that level of GPS are selling at bargain prices.

Happy shopping !

BILL

[peevee]

  Just my opinion, but I think it is a combination of less pilots (lots of old guys like me that are dropping out after decades of flying), rough economy, less friendly airspace, (eg. more TFR's complicate use of our airplanes), and higher costs of fuel and everything else associated with flying and aircraft ownership. 

 

 

I don't know anything about anything, but I agree with you. It seems to me I don't run into too many younger folks interested in flying, and the ones I do know have given it up for one reason or another. Coupled with a documented sharp decline in new certificates issued I worry GA is going to be out of reach of the common man.

[mooneygirl]

I guess I have to start off with the fact that we don't really have any proof that I am aware of that the Chinese bought Mooney.  There might very well be Chinese money behind Los Angeles based Jerry Chen and his company Soaring Inc.  But then again Mooney has been looking for investors for many years and no Americans with money have stepped forward.  And for what it's worth the holding company that owned Mooney previously wasn't American either.

 

Okay, now that is out of my system.  We started the Mooney Ambassadors in 2009.  It seemed like everyone was wanting a place to fly and show off their airplanes.  Then when the recession hit and fuel prices went up less and less folks are flying.  When we display we talk with the public about if they are pilots or ever wanted to be. The most common thing we hear is that folks think that 1) training is too expensive; 2) that airplanes are too expensive.  I usually talk about scholarships [particularly if they are female] and that while a license might cost 6-8K, it is only once then you are licensed for life.  And as far as how expensive planes are, I say that most folks spend $40-60K on a new SUV and for that price you can have a cool vintage Mooney.

 

I think we can all do more to promote general aviation and inspire the love of flight.  I believe strongly that one way is to have cool community events at our airports.  We have Toys for Tots coming up at our home drome, Oceano Airport L52.  Super simple: music, toys for the kids, BBQ, Elf flour bombing, all welcome.  http://www.friendsofoceanoairport.com for more.

[aviatoreb]

I guess I have to start off with the fact that we don't really have any proof that I am aware of that the Chinese bought Mooney.  There might very well be Chinese money behind Los Angeles based Jerry Chen and his company Soaring Inc.  But then again Mooney has been looking for investors for many years and no Americans with money have stepped forward.  And for what it's worth the holding company that owned Mooney previously wasn't American either.

 

Okay, now that is out of my system.  We started the Mooney Ambassadors in 2009.  It seemed like everyone was wanting a place to fly and show off their airplanes.  Then when the recession hit and fuel prices went up less and less folks are flying.  When we display we talk with the public about if they are pilots or ever wanted to be. The most common thing we hear is that folks think that 1) training is too expensive; 2) that airplanes are too expensive.  I usually talk about scholarships [particularly if they are female] and that while a license might cost 6-8K, it is only once then you are licensed for life.  And as far as how expensive planes are, I say that most folks spend $40-60K on a new SUV and for that price you can have a cool vintage Mooney.

 

I think we can all do more to promote general aviation and inspire the love of flight.  I believe strongly that one way is to have cool community events at our airports.  We have Toys for Tots coming up at our home drome, Oceano Airport L52.  Super simple: music, toys for the kids, BBQ, Elf flour bombing, all welcome.  http://www.friendsofoceanoairport.com for more.

 

Mooneygirl,  I agree with 95% of what you say, esp regarding it being life choices for folks who can afford and who buy a $40-60k SUV, and there are many.  But there are many folks who do not buy such cars, ever, and who cannot afford such a vehicle.  There are two kids locally who are case in point.  One is ~19 years old and he works his fingers bare for every hard earned hour and he is up to ~95hrs and working on instrument.  He dreams of being a pro eventually, and he is on track.  Another kid is 11.  He has 2 hrs.  Plus unofficial hours (since I am not a CFI), several flying with me.

 

Also, it is quite true if a PPL costs 6-8k then it is something you keep for life, but if a person wants to keep flying safely, it is an ongoing cost to keep flying, at least minimally, and that is expensive. Flying is expensive, and there is no way around that, other than as you remarked that for many people it is just a matter of choosing to drive a 10-20k car instead of a 60k car.  I have helped many times to staff the village of PTD (for KPTD) airport committee information table during the village summer festival.  Some folks who come by are interested but say its too expensive, but they have boats, second homes, snowmobiles, and ....expensive SUVs.  But some who come by say its expensive and have very little.  One guy in the hangar behind me somehow has managed to restore and own an experimental, and he flies it, on mogas running ~3gph on a grocery store box-stacker's salary.  If there is enough will there is a way.  There is also a steady stream of students from the two local universities, so I do see here many excited young people who make learning to fly a priority.

[Jamie]

Anyway, looking online, I'm seeing some incredibly low prices in today's market.  How much of the pricing is due nobody flying anymore?  How much is due to Chinese company purchasing Mooney?

The economy never recovered. Many factors at work, but there simply isn't a lot of demand at the previous price level. If you think there are some good deals now, wait until interest rates start to go back up. I think most large purchases are financed (I didn't, but not being rich, I saved the money up. I know, I know... bad consumer, no cookie.) The aspects you mentioned may have something to do with it, but the economy is soft everywhere, and it'll get worse.

I knew all of this and bought anyway. Didn't want to wait any longer. I'm not looking to make money on the plane, so I don't particularly care if I buy at the absolute bottom, and since I know I'm going to lose money on the plane, what's another 20% (30%... 50%... *sigh*).

On the "economy sucks, but good news!" front, maybe the softening demand coupled with the change in the rules will finally make stuff cheap enough I can afford to put some cool toys (engine monitor, aspen, etc) in the plane.

IMHO, buy the plane like you would a computer. Determine how much you want to spend, find something you like, buy it, and then DO NOT LOOK at the prices again until you're ready to sell.

[PMcClure]

I bought into a 69F model with a group of 3 other guys. One was a retired man, driving a school bus to keep benefits. Another was a fed ex long haul  truck driver. Both of them barely were able to make ends meet. But somehow, we managed to run that partnership on $125-150/ month dues. That was all in, insurance, hanger, everything. We put in $20 an hour per flight hour and somehow that paid for all repairs and allowed to save up $16,000 for an engine overhaul in the future. At $5/gallon, gas was $50/hour and at 140 knots, that comes $.44 per statute mile plus $150 month. My cost to join was about $15k. I moved on, recovering my investment and another pilot is enjoying the benefits. 

 

My experiences with newer aircraft (BE36 and M20R) are enjoyable but with a higher hull value and more expensive avionics, come higher costs. I know costs are a factor in why people don't fly more. But is it the reason people don't fly? I don't know about that, if you really want to do something, you find a way and if a retired guy driving a school bus can enjoy Mooney ownership, why can't anyone? 

 

Anyway, welcome back. I have only been flying about 7 years now, so I can't tell you what has changed. But what hasn't changed is the freedom and sense of accomplishment and enjoyment that comes with owning your own a/c. Best of luck!

[Jamie]

...we don't have LORAN any more....

[Mooneymite]

.... I know costs are a factor in why people don't fly more. But is it the reason people don't fly? I don't know about that, if you really want to do something, you find a way and if a retired guy driving a school bus can enjoy Mooney ownership, why can't anyone? 

 

I don't want to drag this thread into the area of social trends, but from my observations young people are not interested in aviation today.

I fly rich shareholders (and their kids) around in private jets. In the seven years I've been doing this, I've hauled lots of kids of all ages. The cockpit is readily available...no cockpit door.

Would anyone speculate on how many of the young people show any interest in the cockpit, or in flying? These are rich kids who could (presumably) easily afford to learn to fly.

Once they get on the Internet, they have no interest in the world around them. Mostly they close the window shades so they can see their screens better.

Very depressing.

Aviation's life blood are the young folk. They simply prefer the virtual world to aviation.

[KSMooniac]

Heck, I know teenage boys that don't even own or aspire to own their own cars!  Starting from the time I was 12 or so, I couldn't wait to have a car and saved my money to buy my own since my folks said they wouldn't buy one for me.  I devoured all kinds of auto magazines, auto traders, etc.  Bought one at 15 and then learned how to work on it.  Fast forward a few more years and my affliction metastasized to airplanes!  It took a LOT longer to be able to own, but I can't imagine life without one now.  

 

I can't relate at all to folks that have no interest in driving or owning a car.  If they don't want the freedom to travel independently around town, how can we convince them to learn to fly?

[N33GG]

Mooneymite, KSMooniac, and openskyflier, I agree with your posts. I have flown for wealthy people that have sent their children to me to learn to fly. Not one success story in the bunch. I could make it fun, and they did indeed learn to fly. But their interest meter was stuck on zero. They learned to fly because their parents wanted them to, not because they were motivated themselves.

Also, I have had people that were excited and motivated come to learn to fly that have successfully gotten their PPL, Instrument, and other advanced ratings. They bought planes planning to use the aircraft for business and pleasure flying. Some of these included doctors and lawyers that could easily afford the expense. Most of these people sold their airplanes and gave up on flying due to the lack of utility and complications associated with general aviation in the current environment. Flying used to be a lot simpler and friendly to the GA pilot. To me, it is like comparing the thrill of flying commercial in the 60's to flying commercial today.

My observation has been that, unless you really love flying, it just isn't going to be something you will stick with. And today, I see fewer people with that burning desire that I have known all of my life. A lot of people complain about not enjoying primary instructing, or one type of flying or another. Not me. I have loved every minute I have been in the air, even when not in a Mooney!

Not trying to be negative here, just sharing what I have seen. FWIW IMHO YMMV etc.

[Jamie]

IMHO, it's not the kids. Biology didn't change that fast. It's not even the internet, or the phones.

 

It's the schools, and the general way every snow flake is special.  The kids get all the artificial praise and sense of accomplishment they could possibly want for each and every little activity they try. Flying is hard, but it's worth it. And that's the problem... "X is hard, but worth it" is not something a snowflake understands.

 

It would be interesting to see if homeschooled kids are any more interested in aviation. Anyone ever take a group of homeschoolers on an intro flight?

[phecksel]

My kids would have ZERO interest in learning to fly.

 

I miss flying, however, it was a completely different time, and I shared it with my parents in their twilight years.  When I delivering the plane to the purchaser on the east coast, my g/f (now wife), said if you turn this thing around and land in vegas, we can afford it on both of our incomes.  It was tempting, but after a bad marriage and difficult divorce, getting married to be able to keep a "thing" was not in my best interest.

 

To answer the question on training, absolutely.  12 years is a lifetime to be away from flying.  However, I would expect to find it challenging to get back into a slow C   i had an exceptionally fast C.  I LOVED the manual gear and hydraulic flaps.  That was a sweet setup, that also led to some "bad" habits... like as soon as the mains were solid, dumping the flaps.  I had turned off in something like 400 feet one day.

 

I raced, traveled to a lot neat places (had a lot more on my punch list), went every year to Homecoming, raced some more, traveled a lot on my employers dime, and just had a blast.  Right now, it financially looks like a deep hole with no real purpose.

 

Which kind of leads to the next question, an older well kept plane, with older panel is easily affordable.  I'm an engineer that loves geeky stuff   GPS panels were just becoming main stream when I left.  I'm assuming more modern panels are typically found on the more expensive planes.  Am I better off buying down and upgrading over time, or finding some way to move up?

 

I have three boxes of aviation "stuff" I have not been able to part with, including a flight board my dad made courtesy of his employer.  I have more Mooney glasses and coffee cups than I know what to do with.  It goes on and on

 

Think we're going to have some long discussions around the house over the holiday period.

 

Has the airspace become more challenging in the last 10 years?

[carusoam]

If there were changes, they were glacially slow...

Enjoy some training, earn your biennial flight review. Aviate and Live life...

Engineers love planes (and other machines)!

How does that sound?

-a-

[PMcClure]

My kids would have ZERO interest in learning to fly.

 

I miss flying, however, it was a completely different time, and I shared it with my parents in their twilight years.  When I delivering the plane to the purchaser on the east coast, my g/f (now wife), said if you turn this thing around and land in vegas, we can afford it on both of our incomes.  It was tempting, but after a bad marriage and difficult divorce, getting married to be able to keep a "thing" was not in my best interest.

 

To answer the question on training, absolutely.  12 years is a lifetime to be away from flying.  However, I would expect to find it challenging to get back into a slow C   i had an exceptionally fast C.  I LOVED the manual gear and hydraulic flaps.  That was a sweet setup, that also led to some "bad" habits... like as soon as the mains were solid, dumping the flaps.  I had turned off in something like 400 feet one day.

 

I raced, traveled to a lot neat places (had a lot more on my punch list), went every year to Homecoming, raced some more, traveled a lot on my employers dime, and just had a blast.  Right now, it financially looks like a deep hole with no real purpose.

 

Which kind of leads to the next question, an older well kept plane, with older panel is easily affordable.  I'm an engineer that loves geeky stuff   GPS panels were just becoming main stream when I left.  I'm assuming more modern panels are typically found on the more expensive planes.  Am I better off buying down and upgrading over time, or finding some way to move up?

 

I have three boxes of aviation "stuff" I have not been able to part with, including a flight board my dad made courtesy of his employer.  I have more Mooney glasses and coffee cups than I know what to do with.  It goes on and on

 

Think we're going to have some long discussions around the house over the holiday period.

 

Has the airspace become more challenging in the last 10 years?

For a pilot on a budget, a good vintage plane with a 430 WAAS system and STEC autopilot with GPS steering and an IPAD mini is about all the capability you need. Cheap to buy, cheap to maintain and very capable.  It is cheaper to buy what you want rather than upgrade, so the conventional wisdom goes. 

[aviatoreb]

Engineers love planes (and other machines)!

 

 

I agree with that.  Many of us here are engineer "types".  (I am a math professor - can I hang out with you engineers?  :-)  )

 

As for the discussion that kids aren't interested in flying anymore, as I already said, there seems to be a slow but steady stream of kids from the local colleges that train to be pilots at our local airport, and I have definitely noticed that this group is highly biased toward engineering majors.  Amongst the engineering majors, I claim that kids still want to fly!

[carusoam]

You're always welcome Erik...

Best regards,

-a-

[phecksel]

Engineers tend to gravitate towards these Birds.  Dr's and Lawyers tended towards bo's... except for one really smart MD whose already noticed me popping back up

 

i used to have a really great insurance agency and company, but as I was getting out, they apparently were too.  Who are the favored providers these days, and how much is insurance running?

 

If I step up into a less affordable machine, but with modern electronics, who's doing loans, and what kind of terms are available?

[PMcClure]

I agree with that.  Many of us here are engineer "types".  (I am a math professor - can I hang out with you engineers?  :-)  )

 

As for the discussion that kids aren't interested in flying anymore, as I already said, there seems to be a slow but steady stream of kids from the local colleges that train to be pilots at our local airport, and I have definitely noticed that this group is highly biased toward engineering majors.  Amongst the engineering majors, I claim that kids still want to fly!

Can't rest a little joke an engineering prof told me about the differences between engineering and math majors - 

 

One day a professor did an experiment. He placed a prize across the room and told two students that they could move half the distance to it in one move then half the remaining distance in the next move. They are told they can continue this pattern until they reach the prize, then it was theirs.

 

The math major instantly tells the professor that they would never reach the prize and sat down. The engineering major stood at the door and thought for a while. Then he moved half way across the room and then half way again. One more move and he said "close enough" and grabbed the prize! 

 

At the time, Engineering was practically all male and the prize was rather more descriptive!

 

I think there must be a lot of things going on in the lower numbers of pilots today. Surely cost and many other distractions among them. But personal flying is much less practical than it must have been 20 years ago. I can fly across the country for $200-$300 on Southwest airlines and there are flights to just about anywhere I want to go. Unless that passion of flight is instilled, there seems little reason why a young person would want to fly in GA. And flying is much more routine today that it was then. I can still remember my first flight on a jet in the 70's. My kids have been on maybe 100 flights by the time they were in high school. 

 

My kids are interested and love flying with me. Flying has been an educational experience for them and a way for me to show them how math and science is used in the real world. It is also one of the "cooler" things I do as my 17 year old says.  But I don't see them wanting or needing to go out and get their PPL. 

[aviatoreb]

You're always welcome Erik...

Best regards,

-a-

 

:-)

[aviatoreb]

Can't rest a little joke an engineering prof told me about the differences between engineering and math majors - 

 

One day a professor did an experiment. He placed a prize across the room and told two students that they could move half the distance to it in one move then half the remaining distance in the next move. They are told they can continue this pattern until they reach the prize, then it was theirs.

 

The math major instantly tells the professor that they would never reach the prize and sat down. The engineering major stood at the door and thought for a while. Then he moved half way across the room and then half way again. One more move and he said "close enough" and grabbed the prize! 

 

Those poor Greeks didn't understand calculus.  I do!

 

That is a classic Greek paradox called Zeno's paradox of motion.  

 

Let me confuse you if I may:  It can be stated more seriously so that even the engineer student can't possibly get the prize either.  If you can't get all the way there because you need to cross that halfway point, then the halfway point from there (the original 3/4 point) then the halfway point from there (the original 7/8 point) then you can't get all the way there so goes the argument, but the engineer student in the story is happy once he gets to the 15/16th's point and says good - close enough give me the prize.  But hold on young engineering student!  IF YOU CAN'T get all the way there, then you will have a problem getting to the 1/2 point, and likewise you would have a problem getting to the halfway point to the halfway point, the 1/4 point - you can't get to the 1/4 point which is one of the way points to the 1/2 point waypoint.  But wait, repeat the ad-infinitum....and you can't get anywhere!  The engineering student IS STUCK IN HIS SPOT, CAN'T MOVE AT ALL, not a single millimeter, and so can't get close enough even to cheat to grab the prize early, so he should sit down, just like the math major had good sense to in the first place.

 

Challenge (or as they say in my field of work, the solution is left as an exercise for the reader): I will solve this conundrum paradox if no one else can.  I am busy waxing skis on this snowy off day today!  Hint - the Greeks did not know calculus but I do...and there are several different arguments within the language of calculus, some of them are pretty easy.

[DonMuncy]

I think the reason modern kids have no interest in flying is familiarity. When we were kids, we looked up and (rarely) saw an airplane. It was like magic. We wanted to do it. Then commercial flight came along and only the wealthy could fly. We wanted to do that too.  Now, any time you look up you are likely to see a plane. Everyone flies commercially . It is ho-hum stuff. Add to that we have video games that let you fly at mach 3 & dog-fight with other planes (I presume).  So the thought of paying a lot of money to go out and putt around in a C150 apparently doesn't get kids enthusiastic.  

However, perhaps there is hope. Sometimes when I take a non flyer up and hand them the controls, they think it is something unique. On the downside, I have yet to get any of my passengers to take lessons.