RobertE Posted September 7, 2013 Report Posted September 7, 2013 I often see fairly dire references to ballooning in a Mooney. I confess, though, that in my next 10 landings, particularly if a number of them are in gusty conditions, I'm likely to ballon 1 or 2 feet in a couple of them. I don't push the nose down in response but I am guilty of going from 1 foot AGL to 3 feet, then back to 1 and then zero. Am I playing with fire here? Quote
aaronk25 Posted September 7, 2013 Report Posted September 7, 2013 Yep going to fast over fence, try 5kts slower....... As long as you don't push the nose over while ballooning your prob safe but its bad practice. If it stalls while at top of ballon might set down firm. Hard on tires, donuts ECT. Quote
1964-M20E Posted September 7, 2013 Report Posted September 7, 2013 I do not think so. I've done this as well. It is better to not do it. However, IMHO as long as you do not force the plane down and you have the runway to continue to make a safe landing you are fine. I think the trick is to stabilize the plane after the balloon and let it settle down onto the runway. I'd practice more and watch your ASI and try to fly the numbers. 2 Quote
Shadrach Posted September 7, 2013 Report Posted September 7, 2013 There's a difference between gust induced ballooning (which happens to all of us, especially on warm days when the gust factor is >10kts) and pilot induced ballooning. Regardless of why the aircraft balloons, what's important is what you do after it happens. Gust induced balloons are harder to deal with in my book because you can suddenly find yourself at 5ft AGL, out of energy with a wing that's now ready to stall. No matter how it happens a little throttle will help the pilot get back into a place of managing energy. This is why I try to make it a habit of keeping my hand on the throttle until I've exited the runway. 1 Quote
Hector Posted September 7, 2013 Report Posted September 7, 2013 Agree with above. It's really not a problem as long as you take correct action after it happens and it sounds like you are. This may not be very popular around here, but in my home field I have long runways to play with and rarely use full flaps simply because of the greater tendency to float. Personal experience is that with no flaps 8 of 10 landings as near as perfect as they can be with the mains kissing the runway with the the stall horn going. With two pumps of the flaps 6 of 10. With full flaps 3 of 10. Not saying I have bad landings with full flaps, but more often than not they are not ones I'm proud of Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD Quote
mooneygirl Posted September 7, 2013 Report Posted September 7, 2013 FWIW I think that speed control is the key in landing a Mooney. As mentioned above, you cannot push that nose over in a balloon or you will porpoise down the runway. I have adjusted my speed over the years and really try to fly it religiously. Having watched hundreds of Mooneys land, ballooning and floating are not uncommon. In my opinion the problem is speed control. My E loves to fly at 70-75 mph. She will do it all day. So why would I try to land her going that fast? Maybe some on the list use the "auto-land" feature while in the low flare.... retract flaps. I don't personally do it, but some folks swear by it. Let's fly safe out there! Quote
carqwik Posted September 7, 2013 Report Posted September 7, 2013 Use takeoff flaps when landing in gusty winds...it helps reduce ballooning. Just be sure to add to the appropriate calm wind Vref for the wind. Quote
N201MKTurbo Posted September 7, 2013 Report Posted September 7, 2013 My first flight in an airplane was in 1976. This old WWII pilot took me up in a 152. He told me that all I have to do to land any plane is to just fly it one foot off the ground over the runway and kill the power. As the plane slows down just pitch up enough to keep the plane one foot above the ground. He said it will eventually loose all its momentum and settle on the runway. This method works with every GA plane I've ever flown. (it doesn't work well in jets). So when you are landing don't think about flaring to arrest your decent, just think about leveling off a little ways above the runway. As the plane slows down the nose will come up and the plane will gently sink down to the runway. This method works no matter how fast you are going. If you are going too fast you will just use more runway. 2 Quote
robert7467 Posted September 7, 2013 Report Posted September 7, 2013 Me personally when it's a little gusty, I go in at 85 with no flaps and she does just fine. If I do start ballooning I sometimes have to finess the yoke, down just a little and the back again. Like I said its finessing, not forcing the nose down, and not yanking back to hard either.Not trying to brag, but for the last 30 hrs, every single landing has been a greaser with no surprises. Prior to that, landings were my biggest challenge, but now that I am comfortable with my plane I find myself getting better and better every time I fly. Quote
N601RX Posted September 8, 2013 Report Posted September 8, 2013 I normally don't balloon, but the few times I have I immediately look at the airspeed. If it is ok, and I have enough runway I just let it settle back down. If the airspeed is low, I will add a little power and then let it settle back down. I just got a letter from our airport this week informing everyone that 1000 ft of our 3000 foot runway would be closed for the next 45 days to add a taxiway. Any ballooning now will be a go around. Quote
garytex Posted September 8, 2013 Report Posted September 8, 2013 If I baloon a bit, I just hold what I have and as the airplane settles, add back pressure and increase angle of attack to slow the sink. If the sink then overpowers the increasing AoA a tiny bit of throttle smoothes things out 201 turbo's method learned from the old fart is also a great way to 3-point a taildragger, which is what I learned in. I haven't played with the less flaps in windy conditions bit, thinking that doing the same thing each time reduces a variable. However I wonder if Hector doesn't have a good idea. It's always a little gusty and the air roils due to hills at my home airport, maybe my "same every time" amount of flaps should be less than Full. Opinions? Gary Quote
aviatoreb Posted September 9, 2013 Report Posted September 9, 2013 My first flight in an airplane was in 1976. This old WWII pilot took me up in a 152. He told me that all I have to do to land any plane is to just fly it one foot off the ground over the runway and kill the power. As the plane slows down just pitch up enough to keep the plane one foot above the ground. He said it will eventually loose all its momentum and settle on the runway. That is like a mantra that that used to (okay still does) help me. Following when I flare, and with power at idle, I try NOT to land. Try to make a game of seeing how long you can keep the airplane flying along at 1ft. The longer you can keep it flying, the nicer the landing when it finally gives up flying. 1 Quote
Piloto Posted September 9, 2013 Report Posted September 9, 2013 Robert If your plane is equipped with electric trim it will help you overcoming the ballooning effect. On reason for ballooning is the slight pitch oscillation induced by the pilot when using the elevator for pitch control. Instead use the electric trim switch on the yoke to bring the nose up. The stabilator has a greater authority than the elevator and is less subject to loose pitch control as the speed goes down. Part of the ballooning is caused by the downwash created by the extended flaps. It helps to raise the flaps as you get close to the ground, specially in gusty and crosswind conditions. On the Missile and Rocket is not unusual to ran out of trim due to the heavier engine. Raising the flaps helps bringing the nose up without porpoising. José Quote
AlanA Posted September 9, 2013 Report Posted September 9, 2013 I use to balloon frequently until I changed to a power on landing technique. Now very rarely happens. There is a good article written recently about power on landings in AOPA's ( or was it Plane and Pilot?) magazine. Helped me a lot! Quote
robert7467 Posted September 9, 2013 Report Posted September 9, 2013 Robert If your plane is equipped with electric trim it will help you overcoming the ballooning effect. On reason for ballooning is the slight pitch oscillation induced by the pilot when using the elevator for pitch control. Instead use the electric trim switch on the yoke to bring the nose up. The stabilator has a greater authority than the elevator and is less subject to loose pitch control as the speed goes down. Part of the ballooning is caused by the downwash created by the extended flaps. It helps to raise the flaps as you get close to the ground, specially in gusty and crosswind conditions. On the Missile and Rocket is not unusual to ran out of trim due to the heavier engine. Raising the flaps helps bringing the nose up without porpoising. José She is not equipped with electric trim. I know some guys are going to bash me here, but I don’t use trim on approach, and it works well for me. The couple times I did use it, I started bouncing. At first, my problem was with flaps. Using flaps maybe 2 out of 3 landings were bad. After not using flaps for so long, I got really comfortable with that configuration, but I knew I needed to learn to fly by the POH. Then I started adding one notch at a time, and for the last 30 hrs, I have been using full flaps on my landings except for windy/gusty conditions where I like the stability of adding a little speed and not using flaps. For some reason I can seem to get over the trim issue just yet since I was trained to handle my approaches and landings "by the stick", which in the event of a go around, that’s one less thing to mess with. My partner fly’s the plane exact to the POH, and is anal enough to have a 20 page checklist, well not that many, but you get the point. We went up, and he demonstrated using the trim, and by the textbook he had a good landing, but maybe since I have more regency and more hrs in the Mooney, my landings are always smooth for the most part. Anyone reading this, don’t not take this as advice, this is just what works for me and obviously I need some more training and practice. Quote
midlifeflyer Posted September 9, 2013 Report Posted September 9, 2013 I do not think so. I've done this as well. It is better to not do it. However, IMHO as long as you do not force the plane down and you have the runway to continue to make a safe landing you are fine. I think the trick is to stabilize the plane after the balloon and let it settle down onto the runway. I'd practice more and watch your ASI and try to fly the numbers. This Pilot-induced unintentional ballooning is simply having excessive airspeed in the landing flare but trying to flare as if you didn't. It means you did not control your airspeed in the pattern (not just on short final) in a way to produce a "normal" landing. So long as you always have a long enough runway and don't try to force the airplane to land until it's ready, it's easily controllable (even given a pilot who made the mistakes that led to unintentional ballooning to begin with). OTOH, forcing the airplane down can have serious repercussions, especially including wheelbarrowing the airplane with no directional control. Quote
Shadrach Posted September 9, 2013 Report Posted September 9, 2013 There's a lot of talk about flaps and how they affect approach. I agree that using partial or no flags is a good idea in significant crosswind, but the trade-off is visibility. What the flaps do most effectively is allow for steeper descent at a given speed by changing the wing chord. My personal SOP for Xwinds is to fly a 1 mile final, at 1/2 mile final I decide whether it's going to be a full flap landing. If I have a surplus of control authority in the slip then I fully extend flaps.; If I don't have a surplus, then I leave them at half. It takes a pretty fairly stiff wind to run out of rudder in the planes with the full length rudder. Quote
jetdriven Posted September 9, 2013 Report Posted September 9, 2013 It also increases AOA which allows a lower pitch attitude for visibility. Quote
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.