1980Mooney

This discussion is getting loony. I don’t understand why otherwise logical people are automatically leaping to the conclusion that the shop received an insurance reimbursement for the GTN and at the same time was paid the full price for the GTN by the OP. It has been clearly stated that the insurance company was involved to try to recover the stolen goods for return to the MSC. Logically if they could not recover the stolen goods, they would seek on behalf the MSC to recover, monies equal to the cost of the goods (ie get the plane owners to pay the MSC) which is what the OP paid to the MSC. Additionally, this “OP paid for the GTN twice“ statement has no relevance. The OP paid the MSC once for the GTN. He unfortunately also paid 80% of that amount (after getting the phantom 20% discount) to the personal account of an individual who just happened to be the Avionics manager. The theft and deceptive sale was by and with the avionics manager.

I think the car guys would refer to that as “RestoMod”.

That is a valid point - it is like a captain making the decision to dump valuable cargo overboard as his ship takes on water while trying to make it back to safe harbor. Now in the case of SV Bank, most of the depositors benefited beyond what their accounts were insured for - 85% uninsured. This bank had massive holdings making it the second largest failure in history. I don't know what percentage of insured vs uninsured deposits should be but I don't think it should be 85% uninsured. Somehow their management was rewarded for mismanagement. It does not address how this bank or Signature (lured into the even less regulated murky Crypto currency) was able or allowed to get into such a mess. And if such a large bank can get into such a weak position that a single Tweet by Peter Theil can cause a run and insolvency, then there needs to be more regulation and oversight. There doesn't seem to be a lot of accountability or consequences to the ones that made the decisions and profited from them - time will tell.

In addition to @ZuluZulu s suggestions there is also some merit in @JayMatts. If the shop owner is talking to you then there is a chance he may work with you to square things in the future - maybe comp some work. As said you and he are both victims of the ex-shop manager. If you go to court then there will be bad blood between you and the shop forever. And I don't see much that Garmin can do other than take your GTN650xi off of the "stolen list" and reinstate your warranty. WIsh you better luck in the future

I think the insurance claim was for the GTN650xi that was on the asset ledger for the MSC - which the mgr stole and sold to the OP. - Has nothing to do with service. If you go to court I suspect the first thing the judge will ask the OP is "if you were honest why did you think you could buy that Garmin box for 20% less than the MSC was selling it for and 20% less than everyone else has to pay for the same thing at the MSC where you had it installed?" As others have said this will be very uncomfortable for the OP. And if the MSC recovers any loses from 3rd parties like the OP (the OP said he paid the shop directly and not to the insurance co.) then it is the Insurance company that has a right to claw back settlements they made with/paid to the shop - The OP has no claim or right with the insurance company settlement - as they say "follow the money" - the settlement is only between the MSC and their insurance company.

Just curious since the OP is looking for a precut kit: Are the cowl dimensions, clearances and baffling arraignment on the OP’s Mod Works Trophy 262 conversion exactly the same as a 252?…or just close to the same?

Isn't this analogous to you insuring your Acclaim for $70K? (about 15% of market value - reports say only 15% of deposits at SV Bank were insured). And then, in the event that a tornado hits Gillespie County Airport, destroying all the planes including yours, the insurance companies say "Out of the goodness of our hearts we will pay the market replacement value for every plane destroyed even if it is above the insured value. - even though you knew that we said that we would only cover insured value, even though you were too lazy or cheap to have it fully insured". How does this change anyone's behavior if they know the government is going to bail them out and make them whole every time? I suppose the message has to be "OK we will bail you out this time but this is the last time we are going to ever do it again".... Yeah - right. This is like all those aging rock band "Farewell Tours" - "absolutely the last time...".....UNTIL THE NEXT TIME ‘Farewell’ Tours That Didn’t Stick — From Cream to Motley Crue – Rolling Stone I am not sure what we learned from the S&L '80's or 2008.

Another reason to be worried: Look at the graph. Look at the magnitude of this is a single failure vs the 25 in 2008. And this graph doesn't even include the Signiture Bank failure. (which, with $118 billion, is the 3rd largest bank failure in history - SV Bank was the 2nd largest bank failure in history). SV and Signiture combined is $327 billion - that is already 88% of the total of 2008 - and only 2 banks involved.

You are right that this is a crappy situation all the way around for an enthusiastic new owner. And you are exactly right in your assessment. Although some here suggest that the employee is an agent of the shop and the shop legally at fault, Georgia laws make it harder for the victim to prove because He bought the GTN650xi from the Manager directly - no transaction with the Shop Georgia "In possession of stolen property" laws, which makes it a crime to buy stolen property, intentionally puts more burden on the victim to prove that they were an "unwitting" accomplice. Yes with enough time and money spent on lawyers the victim might win a "deceptive sale" case against the former Shop Manager (and not the shop). But he will likely spend $15k+ to win a $15k settlement - which the former Shop Manager likely will not be able to pay. Money spent on lawyers is usually money down the rat hole. Unfortunately, like @LANCECASPER and @MikeOH highlight, this is a difficult "life lesson" which we could all have fallen victim to early as we first grappled with the cost of maintaining/upgrading our first plane. Also as @ArtVandelay says a good reason to avoid doing business in Georgia, both for the crappy MSC and the crappy Georgia anti-consumer protection laws.

In your first post you said you were dealing with "the manager of avionics at this Garmin certified avionics shop". Here you say "the head of maintenance "Intentionally sabotaged my ignition" - that would Airframe and Engine maintenance. Are you saying this is the same person? - some one that is over all maintenance both Avionics and A&E? Or are these 2 different people at the same Mooney Service Center?

Excellent point. At some point the amount of "uninsured" claims that are being honored as if they were "insured" could overwhelm the FDIC. At that point, the Federal Government (the Treasury) will have to take over all the losses. And then it will directly become a burden which taxpayers must bear. Either taxes will need to be raised (direct burden paid by everyone) or money will just printed (created) leading to inflation and devaluation of the US dollar (indirect burden paid by everyone due to loss of value in everything). Yes there should be worry by those that concentrate funds beyond $250K into one account. Even though less efficient they should spread their funds to more accounts in more institutions.

Here’s another fact. The sale of shares by CEO, Greg Becker, was part of a preplanned (10B5-1 Plan) sale. It was executed on January 26, 2023. On that date, it set the number of shares, the price and the date of sale in the future. The sale was on “auto pilot“ at that point and out of his hands. 10B5–1 plans are like Executive belly buttons – every Executive has one. They are supposed to enable the executive to sell stock (or flip options) on an equal/fair basis with other shareholders. However every executive in any company (large/small, healthy/distressed, good/bad) possesses some degree of “inside information” which the public does not have. If you were to bail out of every company in which the CEO sold stock in a 10B5-1 transaction, you would not own any stock at all. The CEO can always make a superior return. It is not always triggered by bad news – sometimes it’s triggered by good news. Sometimes the CEO will set the sale date right after the announcement of earnings that exceed analysts expectations (which the CEO had an indication was coming) Is it unfair?…a sham? Yes.

Also

Lots of prior discussions on this.

That doesn't always work. I recall people in Houston buying Enron when it was on the way down saying those same things. Memories are selective...

Yes they were. They were trying to manage through it. And it was Peter Thiel's Tweet that caused the bank run. It was the electronic version of yelling "Fire" at busy leaky gas station - and then tossing a lit cigarette as he drives off with a few of his "buddies" ....

Signiture Bank, the other bank taken over and bailed out this weekend, was brought down by their more recent decision and push to attract Crypto currency deposits. Crypto is the biggest black box in the world. It needs more regulation not less - yet you have people like Ted Cruz arguing that crupto should be less regulated. Thankfully Cruz is not on the Senate banking committee.

If you read the release it says: A second bank was shut down by the Treasury and Fed - Signature Bank, New York It makes it sound like the state shut it down but it was ordered by the Treasury and Fed - they ordered the "state chartering authority" to shut it down The press release makes it sound like there is no cost to "taxpayers" - That's BS The FDIC is self- insured requiring banks to keep cash/funds idle in a reserve fund (they can't lend it and make money from it - it is dead weight for the bank). - it is cash/fund equal to approx 1.35% of "insured" funds (also depends upon size and risk of bank) And yes the FDIC is backed up by the Treasury if there is a massive run on many banks that overwhelms the reserve fund. The Fed and Treasury are forcing the FDIC to take funds from the "reserve" and make Both insured and UNINSURED depositors whole. Making Uninsured depositors whole is not what they are set up or capitalized to do. All the remaining banks will now need to contribute additional funds to the idle reserve accounts Every remaining bank will have higher costs which they will pass on to depositors and borrowers - individuals and businesses. Small banks are already complaining about the added costs. Ultimately we pay for it with increased financing costs and higher costs in goods/services due to businesses higher banking costs. SV Bank was the second largest US bank failure in history. It was brought down by a tweet by Peter Theil which caused a run on the bank. Admittedly the bank was weak but that is all it took.

Interesting you mention looking at Controller. GMax/Jimmy Garrison has a '65 M20E, N79808, currently there and is asking $89k,. A topic from early January, "Aircraft sticker vs. sale price" , shows the same plane, N79808, for sale on Controller at the same price (no telling when it was first listed for sale in 2022). It has a J windscreen, touch screen GTN650Xi, 2 GI275's (much more capable than G5) but no autopilot, It has about 1,000 hours on the engine since OH and about 3,400 hours on the airframe (about 460 less hours on the engine and about 2000 less hours on the airframe vs the OP's plane). Point being it has been on Controller since last year and it is not selling. https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/219228295/1965-mooney-m20e-super-21-piston-single-aircraft On the other had the OP's plane from the one picture shows well. It has new paint, some sort of unseen new interior, a great new autopilot with a nice GPS NAV/Comm. The engine is getting up there with about 1,500 hours since OH. The airframe has about 5,400. The plane has new bladders and recent prop OH for a reason that the OP did not mention - Damage History. In 2017 it fell off the jacks, which punctured all the way through both wings, contacting the ground on the main wheel fairings, nose gear doors, prop, exhaust pipe, etc.. The plane was scrapped by the insurance company and sold at a salvage auction. http://www.avclaims.com/N2585W.htm http://www.avclaims.com/n2585w_photos.htm We can assume that it was repaired well but damage history is damage history and there is some discount. The point being no two planes are exactly alike and these valuation estimators are only effective to a certain degree. The OP's M20E will command some sort of premium but all things considered it is hard to say. @VA FLYER summed it up well "I’m no expert on values, but I’ve owned a dozen airplanes over the last 55 years, so take my thoughts with that caveat. Prices are hard to figure out because there are so many variables from one airplane to the next. Sources like V-ref are more accurate for popular airplanes with lots of sales to populate their databases. That said, the market has been pretty crazy over the last 36 months. My sense is that prices on most models are declining a bit at present. Take price guides with a grain of salt. "

That's interesting. The Lycoming IO-360 in my 1980 J was rather leak prone. I can't recall the specifics now but it seemed like we were always chasing a leak . However after my Missile conversion to a Continental IO-550 I have not experienced any leaks in 22 years. It has been tight. The only time I see oil is if I overfill the oil fill pipe by pouring too fast or carelessly. Perhaps the Continental IO-360 is more trouble prone.

There is a big difference between MAPA and the "type clubs" discussed here (BMWCCA) and Cirrus - COPA and Piper - MMOPA (discussed in the other MAPA thread in "Misc Aviation Talk"). Those type clubs are supporting owners of product that is in production. In addition to new owners of "old product", new owners of "new product" are joining. Suppliers like Garmin have an incentive to offer discounts - Piper and Cirrus are exclusive Garmin shops. Owners of older models will be influenced by the latest panels on new aircraft - it helps cement Garmin's dominance. The "type club" helps drive a synergy between the aircraft manufacturer, Garmin, Jepp, etc and the Owners. As a result they all invest a little in one form or another (subscription, underwriting, discounts, donations of product or services, etc) @LANCECASPER said MAPA publications are "just a re-shuffling of what had been printed over and over." Well of course - with no new production in 4 years or likely in the future Mooney ownership is "just a re-shuffling ... over and over". Recall 2 1/2 years ago the new Mooney CEO said one of the priorities was "In the works is an upgrade of the Legacy G1000 to the NXi Phase II." Mooney just needed to do a deal with Garmin. But it is all "crickets". I suspect it is hard for Garmin to envision any synergy with Mooney.

Clear hose? I am confused - all I have ever seen are steel brake lines. The only flexible hose goes to the main landing gear calipers and yes those need replacement sometimes - many last 40+ years. As for the steel brake lines and reservoir - if you have contamination and/or sediment then those need to be flushed.

@goalstop - let me first say I hope this awful event doesn't put an end to your passion in flying. I sense that you are a young aviator and this is your first plane. You have a really fine plane, are upgrading it and are trying to control your expenses. You may have another family member involved that technically owns half the plane. Unfortunately, Georgia is not a state that is interested in protecting consumer rights. I thought @GeeBee, being from Georgia, was going to highlight a different law - a unique law, unlike most states, that gives businesses the upper hand in situations like this. It is called "Theft by Receiving Stolen Property". The law puts more burden on the "true victim" to prove that they are not accomplices. The law says that someone who buys goods that are stolen can be considered an accomplice and guilty of theft if "they should have known" the goods were stolen. "A person commits the offense of theft by receiving stolen property when he receives, disposes of, or retains stolen property which he knows or should know was stolen unless the property is received, disposed of, or retained with intent to restore it to the owner. " As you point out the Avionics Mgr was stealing from his employer. He, personally (unbeknownst to you), was selling Garmin boxes that were owned by his employer, the MSC. He apparently told you this box was direct from Garmin to you (the bill of sale would say Garmin is the seller and you are the buyer). But in fact the sale transaction was from the Avionics Mgr. to you. From the MSC perspective it is simple: The Garmin GTN650xi, was bought wholesale by the MSC from Garmin, is on the MSC inventory and is an asset in the MSC name, That same GTN650xi is sitting in your plane. The MSC never sold it to you (there is no bill of sale, check, Venmo, Zelle, etc between you and the MSC for the box) As @GeeBee and @MikeOH point out above it will be "very uncomfortable because you will have to admit the deal was just a little bit out of the ordinary" This is complicated by the fact that the MSC installed the GTN650xi in your plane. If you look at the Work Order for the installation (the contract you signed between the MSC and you) I bet it says "Owner Supplied" GTN650xi. You point out that this Avionics Mgr. used this scheme to steal $100k from his employer. The MSC wants its money back. And this guy is facing Felony criminal charges. Yes you were deceived, and you are the victim. But the Georgia law gives the MSC (and their insurance company) more power to claim that they were the "victim" and to make you prove that you were not an accomplice in the scheme. (i.e. the Avionics Mgr "stole" the "wholesale value" of the GTN650xi and you, the alleged "accomplice", "stole" the "retail markup" on the GTN650xi.) For there to be any criminal consequences against you, the MSC, their Insurance Co and lawyers would have to prove to a jury that you "should know this 'too good to be true' deal was to buy stolen property". But the problem for you is they don't need to prove it - they can just threaten to. The lawyers for the Insurance Co, which is already involved, are on the Insurance company payroll - a sunk fixed cost - i.e. it costs the Insurance co nothing incremental to make your life hell with legal expense. The Georgia law has a simple solution for the "true victim" buyer (a "don't go to Jail" clause) - you committed no crime if the intent is to restore it to the owner. (see above). That is why the insurance co wants you to return it to the MSC. If you play hardball (like some suggest) then the MSC and Insurance Co can threaten legal action - not just civil but criminal. So the fine state of Georgia leaves the burden in your hands to get your money back - you can press charges against the Avionics Mgr. Let's think about that: He will be using the $100k that he deceived you and others out of to pay for his lawyers in order to try to avoid jail Any money he has left most likely will go to the Insurance co and MSC to compensate them for what will now be yellow tagged "used" Garmin equipment that have no warranties. If you sue or bring charges against the Avionics Mgr, he will say "get in the back of the line" - "I am broke and have bigger problems than your claim." What might Garmin do?: Void the warranty on these "stolen" boxes List the boxes as stolen Their transaction and quarrel is with the MSC - poor management, lack of attention to inventory and accounting, incompetence. Garmin may terminate the MSC as an authorized dealer because they have big order book, have plenty of authorized dealers and can easily terminate one. But Garmin has no relationship with you because you never bought the GTN650xi from them. What might Mooney Corp do? Nothing - they are struggling to survive and probably have no time or interest to discipline an MSC. What might you do now? You could threaten to expose the MSC which may drive business away (maybe - shops are overloaded with work and plane owners will compromise a lot in order to expedite work) This unfortunately also exposes you which may have repercussions on your own business/career dealings. Once the MSC gets their boxes back and insurance proceeds to cover their "used loss in value" then they have no incentive to do anything. Perhaps you could follow @GeeBee final suggestion that you offer the "used value" to the insurance co in order to leave it in hour panel. The problem is that you are now spending additional $$$K and still out the original $12k you paid the criminal Avionics Mgr. for the GTN650xi the first time.

In what State did this all happen (where the Garmin was purchased and installed)? Laws vary somewhat in each State. Your profile indicates that you are based in Georgia.

This situation is really unfortunate. I see from the link which the OP posted in first post that this was a Mooney Service Center - the one with the "extortionary mechanic", that all the pitot static fittings shattered after being worked on, that charged him more hours to fix their defective parts at $150/hour. They have a dishonest service manager that steals from them and extorts customers. The OP has been screwed all around. It is really sad to hear that a MSC could become so careless, poorly managed and dishonest.. I would hope that other Mooney owners in the area are aware of which MSC this is.