1980Mooney

People can reverse engineer now and have been able to do in the past. Yet they don’t. And why is that? Because there was not enough profit in it ( the total contribution is not enough to offset front end costs). Lasar has made a few things in the past, mostly landing gear and steering horn related but that resulted from development they did back around and before 2010. But go look at their website now with their new owner. They are wanting to become more of a service company and to all brands. Their interest solely in Mooney parts is fading. And now costs are higher, the FAA will be more circumspect, the fleet continues to shrink and the ultimate market gets smaller. I think you are kidding yourself If you think anyone is clamoring to get in this market. I suspect that MSC’s can’t purchase, stock or install “knockoff” Mooney parts that the factory still produces(slowly) per contractual agreement with Mooney. How many automobile dealerships do you see selling and installing third party “cheaper” body and suspension parts rather than OEM? I think Jonny knows that he (Mooney) just needs to make it difficult (I.e not share drawings, engineering data) to keep third party PMA at bay.

Everything in aviation is a compromise …a trade off.. You may want perfect (ie a Dougosh ppi) but you may never get it on the best plane at the best value for sale. You mentioned 2 owners that do their own work - even more complexity. Maybe the stars will align for you and maybe they won’t. You are the one that has to decide what is important. Maybe you find a lesser plane at a higher price that will go to Dugosh. If that makes you sleep at night then that’s perfect.

Just curious - how far is the prospective plane from Kerrville? - How long of a trip? The day I decide to sell, I will limit how far I will fly it for a prebuy. I would also prefer the prebuy to be at my field. I agree with @A64Pilot comments.

Well, it sort of actually makes sense… Because if Mooney Corp were to actually build and sell new airplanes about the only ones that could afford to buy them would be “aging pilots”. ….The ones with $1 million in cash laying around. Mooney already demonstrated that they cannot make a profit pricing planes at $700,000 and $800,000 (base). And since all their costs have gone up for labor, materials, components, etc, they may not be able to make a profit even pricing at $1 million.

All that takes is cash up front in order to place economic size orders.....

When you say "Airports banning the sale of leaded gas before the onset of UL" perhaps you are referring to Santa Clara County in California. In August 2021 the Santa Clara County Board of Supervisors voted to stop leaded fuel sales, following the release of a peer-reviewed study that statistically linked ongoing use of leaded aviation gas with elevated lead exposure for the 13,000 children living near Reid-Hillview Airport, The County owns two of the airports, San Martin and Reid-Hillview. The County instructed those airports to stop the sale of leaded Avgas on January 1, 2022. The Airport Manager, airport management companies and FBO's at those airports had no choice but to comply with the County Board per the terms of their employment contracts and service contracts. Those airports sold Swift 94UL as a result. It started an investigation by the FAA but the FAA has since dropped the investigation because Santa Clara County is working with the FAA to get G100UL into those airports. Once again it is easy to blame those Airport Managers, but you are missing the bigger point. The FAA may control airspace, but they do not control airport operations. The FAA has no regulatory authority for controlling land uses to protect airport capacity. The FAA recognizes that state and local governments are responsible for land use planning, zoning, and regulation including that necessary to provide land use compatibility with airport operations. For instance, the City or County leadership can pass regulations that close airports at night or close them completely if they wish (remember Meigs Field in 2003?). The City of Austin closed in 1999 the incredibly convenient Robert Mueller Municipal Airport in the heart of the city . City and County leadership are elected by the voting, tax-paying citizens. If aircraft pilots and owners piss enough voting citizens off by flying too low, intentionally loud, at night and display an attitude of entitlement, we can expect to see "our airports" closed or restricted. We need to do more to build goodwill with communities. That may mean moving airports farther from cities although more expensive (who will pay for the move?) and less efficient for owners.

The entire history was hard to find in one place. If you look at Adanced Aero Component's website, news releases and on Facebook, it looks like they were making more announcements back in 2019 about progress on the G2 and G3. In mid 2019 they announced availability of the carbon fiber G2 and G3 kits. Advanced Aero G2 and G3 "Heritage" Kits Now Available - Glasair Aircraft Owners Association (glasair-owners.com) Then in late 2019 some commented "come to find out you can't actually buy a Glasair I, II, or III any more since Advanced Aero bought the line up. In the process of ditching fiberglass for carbon fiber the price has skyrocketed to around 100 thousand dollars for the airframe only." And in January, 2021 "The new owner of the Glasair II and III designs, Advanced Aero Components, isn't answering phones or email (after the G3 acquisition they shipped two G3 kits with updated tail, gear, and canopy, then disappeared without a trace). The EAA SportAir workshops, which in the past offered a dedicated class on "Composite Construction", don't seem to have a composite class scheduled, although they have pretty much everything else scheduled." Has Advanced Aero priced themselves out of market | Pilots of America It seems to have gone pretty quiet.

Some in Congress would say that General Aviation is already getting a "bailout" every year.

Stoddard-Hamilton Aircraft, Arlington, Washington, was formed by Tom Hamilton. In 1979, the Glasair TD (also known as the Glasair 1) was the first pre-molded composite aircraft kit on the general aviation market. The II and III followed. In May, 2000 Stoddard Hamilton laid off all its employees (75 at the time). In June, 2000 they filed bankruptcy. In 2001, Glasair Aviation was formed when Thomas W. Wathen purchased the Glasair assets from bankrupt Stoddard-Hamilton Aircraft, Inc. and signed an agreement with Arlington Aircraft Development, Inc. (AADI) to buy all rights to and assets of the GlaStar model which Arlington Aircraft Development Inc licensed production to Stoddard Hamilton. (The GlaStar was a high wing designed with aluminum wings, stabilizer and rudder, but a fiberglass fuselage and fin, with a pipe cage around the two-seat cockpit to which the wings and engine are directly mounted). The new companies New Glasair, LLC and New GlaStar, LLC are marketed under the Glasair Aviation name. More than 3000 Glasair kits were delivered worldwide. In July 2012 Glasair Aviation announced that it has been acquired by Jilin Hanxing Group a Chinese company. In September, 2017 Glasair Aviation sold the Glasair II and III assets to Advanced Aero Components. Glasair continued making high wing models. Home - Glasair Aviation USA Advanced Aero Components rebranded the II and III as the G2 and G3. They sell parts and support the fleet. It looks like they are trying to relaunch a carbon fiber redesigned kit of the G2 and G3 - brochure says "taking orders". See the site. Advanced Aero Components Acquires Glasair II and III Assets - KITPLANES Advanced Aero Components - Kit Aircraft, Parts and Accessories (advanced-aero.com)

Low altitude maneuvering looks rather unforgiving. I suspect that is reflected in the insurance rates.

Uh...airports lose money because cost is greater than all sources of revenue (city, state and federal subsidies, landing/ramp fees, rents, FBO fees, fuel mark up, etc. I said "The notion that airports only lose money because of poor management is nonsense." You misquoted me. Companies with stagnant or declining demand protect profits two ways - they cut costs (pay less, offer less, hammer suppliers if they can, etc) or they raise prices. where they can't cut costs. And their costs are going up just like ours. I am sure they are paying more for insurance...just like us. Statistically GA continues to shrink as pilots from the "golden era" of GA pass and their estates send their hangar queens to scrap at a higher rate than new GA are built. Some airports have tried to cut cost by reducing hours, closing and abandoning a runway, etc. Most have needed to raise prices. Many airport owners, especially in Houston, have found it is more profitable and less headache to close the airport and sell to developers - I have seen closings - Andrau (700 acres) is now housing, mixed use, Old Westheimer (74 acres) is now housing, Weiser (102 acres) is being developed. I wager that the heirs of the current owners of West Houston and David Wayne Hooks will sell out by the end of the decade. I don't understand your "4x to 5.5x median income is actually not too bad" comment but your comment about "I've been more concerned with this 3x factor." is spot on. A Bonanza has gone from 4 X median income to 13 X (3.25 times more) A Cessna 172 has gone from 1.6 X median income to 5.5 X (3.45 times more) "If" Mooney were to make planes again at a profit I suspect that they would also need to price them at $900K just like a Cirrus SR22. Let's face it, when Mooney were last selling priced at $700K-800K without options, they lost money.

Spot on. You never get back what you invest. Many modifications are overhyped. Yes they generally produce some improvement, but many are disappointed. See thread from 2010 below. Some deliver big improvement - like putting an IO-550A into a M20J - but at the penalty of operating cost. Here is an example. There is a 1982 M20J, N301TV. They want $199K. The same plane was for sale in 2020 here on MS with more specs shown. It has a Missile (IO-550A) conversion by Rocket Engineering in Dec 1996 - that cost $60K back then - about $120k in today's dollar It had CAV TKS installed - someone on MS in 2020 said that costs $75K It has Monroy Long Range Tanks - that costs about $10K today It was painted in 2019 - that costs about 15-20K today It has Aspen 2000 Pro MAX with GPSS adapter - about $30K today So we are up to $255K for mods and upgrades.....excluding the cost of the basic airframe A lot of J's with mid-time engines (1,000 hours on this one) are asking $135-140K, If you add the "current cost" of the modifications it should sell for almost $400K.....but it doesnt and won't. 1982 MOONEY M20J 201 MISSILE For Sale in Longview, Texas | Controller.com

I understand that these are emotional responses. This is a difficult situation, but it is always best to deal with the facts. We are all distressed that every cost in aviation is going up - A&P shop hour rate, fuel, parts, the cost of new planes, online flight and data subscriptions, etc. For some reason people seem to overlook the fact that the cost to operate an airport and airspace is going up also. The notion that airports only lose money because of poor management is nonsense. "Three-quarters of general-aviation airports lose money every year and stay solvent only with cash from local taxpayers, says Vitaly Guzhva, a finance professor at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University in Florida. "An awful lot of them are in very deep financial trouble," says airport consultant David Plavin, aviation consultant and past President of Airports Council International - North America. General Aviation Airports: A National Asset (May 2012) (faa.gov) And we think the tax on the sales of AvGas, the stuff we use (how many airports have a "self serve Jet-A pump"?) at all these GA airports, pays for everything. However we overlook the fact that AvGas sales continue to decline. And think about it. There are 3,300 GA airports open to the public. 413,000 gallons of AvGas per day sounds like a lot but that is only 125 gallons per day per average GA airport. That isn't even 2 and a half 55-gallon drums per day. Busy gas station convenience stores sell more beer than that per day. If there is $1 tax on that AvGas do you honestly think the $125/day goes very far towards airport expenses? You said something about living in Italy and knowing in the US that "Capitalism is against monopolies and we have antitrust to prevent" "anything goes as long as the government is not involved". Look no further than patented drugs - the US Govt. gives developers a 15 year monopoly - it is called a "patent". And yes companies can charge anything they want - "anything goes". There are many drugs that cost $500,000 - $3 million per dose or full course. In aviation, single FBO's at any remote airport is monopoly. And as single operators buy up the FBO's in a region, it is a regional monopoly. As said above the volume is just not there at most airports to support competition. Lastly many pilots forget that the average voting, tax-paying citizen does consider flying private planes to be a "rich man's game". We are the 1% of the 1%ers. Affordability of GA flying has only gotten more expensive from the "golden era" of the 50's-60's. My next door neighbor bought a brand new Beechcraft Bonanza N35 in 1962. Per Flying Magazine review of the time, it cost $26,500. A lowly Cessna 172 was under $10,000 that year. The median income in 1962 was about $6,000. So a Bonanza could be had for about 4 X the median household annual income and a 172 for about 1.6 X. Today a Bonanza (and Textron/Beechcraft actually sold a couple Bonanza's this year) goes for about a $million and a 172 for about $440,000. Median household income today is about $80,000 so a Bonanza is about 13 X and the 172 is about 5.5 X the median household income. Look at your aviation magazines - most of it is "Turbine edition" now. Most of the discussion is about moving up to a turboprop or jet. Even here on MS there is a lot of discussion about future Mooney's with a turboprop or pressurization. So it is not surprising the average public has that perception.

Doesn't it mean "Air Carrier"? There are some other airports with the same notation, but they will say ACR Ops with more than 30 PAX or something like that

Owner information....assuming he is the pilot.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1671267902639722497 This should work....Overlays both planes with audio.

I thought I attached them....let me try to fix it.

True - it has gotten harder to become a "UFO".....especially with ADSB, radar, security cams, doorbell cams, social media, iPhones, etc.... I can't say that it is one of my goals. The contract Tower at my home drome gets really really pissed if I show up unannounced and unidentified even in the era of ADSB/GPS.

Excellent summary of the FUBAR by N531DD, a 1980 Mooney M20J. The owner, age 69, has owned it since 2001. He doesn't seem to be on MS. https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/watch-f-35-head-butt-private-plane-during-low-level-intercept-over-marin N531DD Flight Tracking and History - FlightAware Watch the F-35 maneuver in front of the Mooney (with ATC audio)

Nothing new reported on the site since March 29. The website is still alive but not attended.

What do you mean by "fly with an instructor"? Do you mean a certain number of hours with a CFI before flying solo? Is it once a year or recuring? How many and how often? Thanks

Distribute costs to others?...Yes by definition. He said they set one fixed price annually- the same for every plane. He said they lose money on 500 planes (i.e. those get far more service). And the other 4,500 make enough profit to cover the loses on the 500. The cost over-run on the minority of planes needing excessive service is distributed back to the majority of planes. Another way to say it is that majority of planes subsidizes the minority of maintenance hogs. It is like insurance. And he said that he looks at the overall profitability of the business. If it doesn't make money then he raises the fixed price the next year.....Just like insurance.

At first I thought it screwed up talking about wings made of carbon (thinking carbon fiber) but it must be a poetic metaphor meaning the carbon molecules which ultimately provide the energy for lift.

“Not that making such a determination based on medical fitness is the solution, but it would be far more objective and logical, if there was a reasonable way to do so, than pulling a number out of the air like we have now.” - Any suggestions? It sounds simple but the devil is in the details. And I don’t see how the ATP rule changes insurance company decisions. They are driven by capitalism, not Congress.

The only production aircraft that uses them is the Tecnam P2012. They put some on the Lancair Evolution but I heard most owners removed them and converted to turboprop. If you look at the specs the TEO540C1A used on the Tecnam (single turbo and no intercooler) is quite a bit heavier than the TIO-540. The TEO540C1A is rated at 375 HP The standard TIO-540-AE2A is rated at 350 HP. It is much lighter and costs a lot less. Aviation is a series of trade offs and optimizations.