1980Mooney

In your first post you said you were dealing with "the manager of avionics at this Garmin certified avionics shop". Here you say "the head of maintenance "Intentionally sabotaged my ignition" - that would Airframe and Engine maintenance. Are you saying this is the same person? - some one that is over all maintenance both Avionics and A&E? Or are these 2 different people at the same Mooney Service Center?

Excellent point. At some point the amount of "uninsured" claims that are being honored as if they were "insured" could overwhelm the FDIC. At that point, the Federal Government (the Treasury) will have to take over all the losses. And then it will directly become a burden which taxpayers must bear. Either taxes will need to be raised (direct burden paid by everyone) or money will just printed (created) leading to inflation and devaluation of the US dollar (indirect burden paid by everyone due to loss of value in everything). Yes there should be worry by those that concentrate funds beyond $250K into one account. Even though less efficient they should spread their funds to more accounts in more institutions.

Here’s another fact. The sale of shares by CEO, Greg Becker, was part of a preplanned (10B5-1 Plan) sale. It was executed on January 26, 2023. On that date, it set the number of shares, the price and the date of sale in the future. The sale was on “auto pilot“ at that point and out of his hands. 10B5–1 plans are like Executive belly buttons – every Executive has one. They are supposed to enable the executive to sell stock (or flip options) on an equal/fair basis with other shareholders. However every executive in any company (large/small, healthy/distressed, good/bad) possesses some degree of “inside information” which the public does not have. If you were to bail out of every company in which the CEO sold stock in a 10B5-1 transaction, you would not own any stock at all. The CEO can always make a superior return. It is not always triggered by bad news – sometimes it’s triggered by good news. Sometimes the CEO will set the sale date right after the announcement of earnings that exceed analysts expectations (which the CEO had an indication was coming) Is it unfair?…a sham? Yes.

Also

Lots of prior discussions on this.

That doesn't always work. I recall people in Houston buying Enron when it was on the way down saying those same things. Memories are selective...

Yes they were. They were trying to manage through it. And it was Peter Thiel's Tweet that caused the bank run. It was the electronic version of yelling "Fire" at busy leaky gas station - and then tossing a lit cigarette as he drives off with a few of his "buddies" ....

Signiture Bank, the other bank taken over and bailed out this weekend, was brought down by their more recent decision and push to attract Crypto currency deposits. Crypto is the biggest black box in the world. It needs more regulation not less - yet you have people like Ted Cruz arguing that crupto should be less regulated. Thankfully Cruz is not on the Senate banking committee.

If you read the release it says: A second bank was shut down by the Treasury and Fed - Signature Bank, New York It makes it sound like the state shut it down but it was ordered by the Treasury and Fed - they ordered the "state chartering authority" to shut it down The press release makes it sound like there is no cost to "taxpayers" - That's BS The FDIC is self- insured requiring banks to keep cash/funds idle in a reserve fund (they can't lend it and make money from it - it is dead weight for the bank). - it is cash/fund equal to approx 1.35% of "insured" funds (also depends upon size and risk of bank) And yes the FDIC is backed up by the Treasury if there is a massive run on many banks that overwhelms the reserve fund. The Fed and Treasury are forcing the FDIC to take funds from the "reserve" and make Both insured and UNINSURED depositors whole. Making Uninsured depositors whole is not what they are set up or capitalized to do. All the remaining banks will now need to contribute additional funds to the idle reserve accounts Every remaining bank will have higher costs which they will pass on to depositors and borrowers - individuals and businesses. Small banks are already complaining about the added costs. Ultimately we pay for it with increased financing costs and higher costs in goods/services due to businesses higher banking costs. SV Bank was the second largest US bank failure in history. It was brought down by a tweet by Peter Theil which caused a run on the bank. Admittedly the bank was weak but that is all it took.

Interesting you mention looking at Controller. GMax/Jimmy Garrison has a '65 M20E, N79808, currently there and is asking $89k,. A topic from early January, "Aircraft sticker vs. sale price" , shows the same plane, N79808, for sale on Controller at the same price (no telling when it was first listed for sale in 2022). It has a J windscreen, touch screen GTN650Xi, 2 GI275's (much more capable than G5) but no autopilot, It has about 1,000 hours on the engine since OH and about 3,400 hours on the airframe (about 460 less hours on the engine and about 2000 less hours on the airframe vs the OP's plane). Point being it has been on Controller since last year and it is not selling. https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/219228295/1965-mooney-m20e-super-21-piston-single-aircraft On the other had the OP's plane from the one picture shows well. It has new paint, some sort of unseen new interior, a great new autopilot with a nice GPS NAV/Comm. The engine is getting up there with about 1,500 hours since OH. The airframe has about 5,400. The plane has new bladders and recent prop OH for a reason that the OP did not mention - Damage History. In 2017 it fell off the jacks, which punctured all the way through both wings, contacting the ground on the main wheel fairings, nose gear doors, prop, exhaust pipe, etc.. The plane was scrapped by the insurance company and sold at a salvage auction. http://www.avclaims.com/N2585W.htm http://www.avclaims.com/n2585w_photos.htm We can assume that it was repaired well but damage history is damage history and there is some discount. The point being no two planes are exactly alike and these valuation estimators are only effective to a certain degree. The OP's M20E will command some sort of premium but all things considered it is hard to say. @VA FLYER summed it up well "I’m no expert on values, but I’ve owned a dozen airplanes over the last 55 years, so take my thoughts with that caveat. Prices are hard to figure out because there are so many variables from one airplane to the next. Sources like V-ref are more accurate for popular airplanes with lots of sales to populate their databases. That said, the market has been pretty crazy over the last 36 months. My sense is that prices on most models are declining a bit at present. Take price guides with a grain of salt. "

That's interesting. The Lycoming IO-360 in my 1980 J was rather leak prone. I can't recall the specifics now but it seemed like we were always chasing a leak . However after my Missile conversion to a Continental IO-550 I have not experienced any leaks in 22 years. It has been tight. The only time I see oil is if I overfill the oil fill pipe by pouring too fast or carelessly. Perhaps the Continental IO-360 is more trouble prone.

There is a big difference between MAPA and the "type clubs" discussed here (BMWCCA) and Cirrus - COPA and Piper - MMOPA (discussed in the other MAPA thread in "Misc Aviation Talk"). Those type clubs are supporting owners of product that is in production. In addition to new owners of "old product", new owners of "new product" are joining. Suppliers like Garmin have an incentive to offer discounts - Piper and Cirrus are exclusive Garmin shops. Owners of older models will be influenced by the latest panels on new aircraft - it helps cement Garmin's dominance. The "type club" helps drive a synergy between the aircraft manufacturer, Garmin, Jepp, etc and the Owners. As a result they all invest a little in one form or another (subscription, underwriting, discounts, donations of product or services, etc) @LANCECASPER said MAPA publications are "just a re-shuffling of what had been printed over and over." Well of course - with no new production in 4 years or likely in the future Mooney ownership is "just a re-shuffling ... over and over". Recall 2 1/2 years ago the new Mooney CEO said one of the priorities was "In the works is an upgrade of the Legacy G1000 to the NXi Phase II." Mooney just needed to do a deal with Garmin. But it is all "crickets". I suspect it is hard for Garmin to envision any synergy with Mooney.

Clear hose? I am confused - all I have ever seen are steel brake lines. The only flexible hose goes to the main landing gear calipers and yes those need replacement sometimes - many last 40+ years. As for the steel brake lines and reservoir - if you have contamination and/or sediment then those need to be flushed.

@goalstop - let me first say I hope this awful event doesn't put an end to your passion in flying. I sense that you are a young aviator and this is your first plane. You have a really fine plane, are upgrading it and are trying to control your expenses. You may have another family member involved that technically owns half the plane. Unfortunately, Georgia is not a state that is interested in protecting consumer rights. I thought @GeeBee, being from Georgia, was going to highlight a different law - a unique law, unlike most states, that gives businesses the upper hand in situations like this. It is called "Theft by Receiving Stolen Property". The law puts more burden on the "true victim" to prove that they are not accomplices. The law says that someone who buys goods that are stolen can be considered an accomplice and guilty of theft if "they should have known" the goods were stolen. "A person commits the offense of theft by receiving stolen property when he receives, disposes of, or retains stolen property which he knows or should know was stolen unless the property is received, disposed of, or retained with intent to restore it to the owner. " As you point out the Avionics Mgr was stealing from his employer. He, personally (unbeknownst to you), was selling Garmin boxes that were owned by his employer, the MSC. He apparently told you this box was direct from Garmin to you (the bill of sale would say Garmin is the seller and you are the buyer). But in fact the sale transaction was from the Avionics Mgr. to you. From the MSC perspective it is simple: The Garmin GTN650xi, was bought wholesale by the MSC from Garmin, is on the MSC inventory and is an asset in the MSC name, That same GTN650xi is sitting in your plane. The MSC never sold it to you (there is no bill of sale, check, Venmo, Zelle, etc between you and the MSC for the box) As @GeeBee and @MikeOH point out above it will be "very uncomfortable because you will have to admit the deal was just a little bit out of the ordinary" This is complicated by the fact that the MSC installed the GTN650xi in your plane. If you look at the Work Order for the installation (the contract you signed between the MSC and you) I bet it says "Owner Supplied" GTN650xi. You point out that this Avionics Mgr. used this scheme to steal $100k from his employer. The MSC wants its money back. And this guy is facing Felony criminal charges. Yes you were deceived, and you are the victim. But the Georgia law gives the MSC (and their insurance company) more power to claim that they were the "victim" and to make you prove that you were not an accomplice in the scheme. (i.e. the Avionics Mgr "stole" the "wholesale value" of the GTN650xi and you, the alleged "accomplice", "stole" the "retail markup" on the GTN650xi.) For there to be any criminal consequences against you, the MSC, their Insurance Co and lawyers would have to prove to a jury that you "should know this 'too good to be true' deal was to buy stolen property". But the problem for you is they don't need to prove it - they can just threaten to. The lawyers for the Insurance Co, which is already involved, are on the Insurance company payroll - a sunk fixed cost - i.e. it costs the Insurance co nothing incremental to make your life hell with legal expense. The Georgia law has a simple solution for the "true victim" buyer (a "don't go to Jail" clause) - you committed no crime if the intent is to restore it to the owner. (see above). That is why the insurance co wants you to return it to the MSC. If you play hardball (like some suggest) then the MSC and Insurance Co can threaten legal action - not just civil but criminal. So the fine state of Georgia leaves the burden in your hands to get your money back - you can press charges against the Avionics Mgr. Let's think about that: He will be using the $100k that he deceived you and others out of to pay for his lawyers in order to try to avoid jail Any money he has left most likely will go to the Insurance co and MSC to compensate them for what will now be yellow tagged "used" Garmin equipment that have no warranties. If you sue or bring charges against the Avionics Mgr, he will say "get in the back of the line" - "I am broke and have bigger problems than your claim." What might Garmin do?: Void the warranty on these "stolen" boxes List the boxes as stolen Their transaction and quarrel is with the MSC - poor management, lack of attention to inventory and accounting, incompetence. Garmin may terminate the MSC as an authorized dealer because they have big order book, have plenty of authorized dealers and can easily terminate one. But Garmin has no relationship with you because you never bought the GTN650xi from them. What might Mooney Corp do? Nothing - they are struggling to survive and probably have no time or interest to discipline an MSC. What might you do now? You could threaten to expose the MSC which may drive business away (maybe - shops are overloaded with work and plane owners will compromise a lot in order to expedite work) This unfortunately also exposes you which may have repercussions on your own business/career dealings. Once the MSC gets their boxes back and insurance proceeds to cover their "used loss in value" then they have no incentive to do anything. Perhaps you could follow @GeeBee final suggestion that you offer the "used value" to the insurance co in order to leave it in hour panel. The problem is that you are now spending additional $$$K and still out the original $12k you paid the criminal Avionics Mgr. for the GTN650xi the first time.

In what State did this all happen (where the Garmin was purchased and installed)? Laws vary somewhat in each State. Your profile indicates that you are based in Georgia.

This situation is really unfortunate. I see from the link which the OP posted in first post that this was a Mooney Service Center - the one with the "extortionary mechanic", that all the pitot static fittings shattered after being worked on, that charged him more hours to fix their defective parts at $150/hour. They have a dishonest service manager that steals from them and extorts customers. The OP has been screwed all around. It is really sad to hear that a MSC could become so careless, poorly managed and dishonest.. I would hope that other Mooney owners in the area are aware of which MSC this is.

Apologies - We seem to go round and round on this topic. @LANCECASPER previously posted an article from Flying Magazine 1974 that highlighted that the Mooney was struggling with the high manhours required to build the plane and competiveness back in 1974. Unfortunately not much has changed. Meijing group reportedly spent money trying to make manufacturing of this largely handmade aircraft as efficient as possible. But its design keeps it horribly labor intensive and expensive to manufacture. Here we are again. And other than the initial "transparency" following the latest change in ownership the Company/Factory/CEO have become "radio silence."

For those new to this discussion @LANCECASPER is exactly correct First - think about the difference between a base Mid-body M20J and a base Long-body Ovation M20R - and the differences in manufacturing. 2 cylinders (4 spark plugs, 2 exhaust manifolds, 2 intake manifolds, etc) 1 propeller blade (and maybe not even that depending if J buyer wants a 3 blade) forward the firewall about 9 inches of composite cowl and spinner behind the steel cage about 16 inches of aluminum Everything else is the same - wings, landing gear, flight controls, insulation, seats, doors, hardware, glass, paint, etc. And with the need for IFR capability they will have basically the same panel, avionics and autopilot. How much money do you think a M20J will save over an Ovation? - maybe $50-75k I bet. Maybe not even that. And I am not talking about cheaping the M20J out with "1980's Royalite" interior. Now we know that Mooney could not make a profit when they priced the basic no options Ovation at $800k and the Acclaim at $900K - the little Gross Margin they made on each plane did not cover Overhead. Hence they shut down manufacturing. If they could save $75k on manufacturing a new J they still would not make a profit even if they priced it at $725k The problem is the labor intensity and materials required to build a Mid-body is not hugely less than a Long-body.

You participated in the discussion on this same topic back in June, 2022. In that topic both @GeeBee and @Fly Boomer reported that Jonny Pollack said at MooneyMax 2022 that "Jonny Pollack said at Mooney Max it takes 9000 man hours to create a Mooney. He said it is a very labor intensive airplane to produce" I have to assume that the CEO of Mooney, Jonny Pollack, knows how many man hours it takes to build the plane. It is not in the range that you quote. Perhaps you forgot about this discussion.

"Move the factory somewhere that the workers have no rights"?!.....No need to move it- - Texas is already in the Top 5 in that category. The only states that routinely top it are Alabama, Georgia, Mississippi and North Carolina.

There is someone out there smart enough to overcome the obstacles - actually 2. Their name is the Klapmeier brothers, Alan Klapmeier and Dale Klapmeier.

It is not too extreme in my opinion. It is only 8 cam locks to open and lower if I recall correctly He should answer any questions you have.

I understand that your advice has been shaped by the pain that you experienced. However, as an owner, when the day comes that I sell, I will never sign an agreement that obligates me to fix things X months in the future (after the plane is sold and flown and worked on by someone else) that someone else thinks may be an airworthiness issue. Mike Busch and Savvy Aviation have written many times that 2 different IA's may not agree that something is an airworthiness issue. I would never expose myself to an open ended liability when the plane is gone and no longer in my possession. Additionally, I no longer will have insurance on the plane to cover any major expense that a new owner might claim to be caused by a hidden or missed airworthiness issue The Annual Inspection Trap (avweb.com) The recent crash of a 252 at Lakeway Airport is a good example. The owner had just purchased the plane. We don’t know why the engine quit and the NTSB probably won’t have a Final out for 2 years. However the repair cost is going to be enormous if the plane isn’t scrapped. If, for instance, it turns out that the oil hoses to the turbocharger sprung a leak and it could be construed as a hidden split (airworthiness issue) then the former owner, now with no insurance, would be on the hook for the cost of the plane. Clearly not viable.

If you read the MS discussion from 2018 on the same topic you will see the pictures of what it looks like after you pry the old gauge out and clean out the old RTV.

@Fix I see that you are in Sweden and suspect that the prospect planes are far from you. There is a small chance that they have been worked on previously and are listed in the Aircraft Log. I would guess that you already have access to the Logs. If not there, then the owner or broker needs to drop the one piece belly as @PT20J says and take a picture of the actuator data plate.