Bob - S50

First: Bank angle doesn't matter. I can be at 90 degrees of bank but 0G and the wing won't stall. Granted, my nose is going to drop quickly, but the wing won't stall. What matters is wing loading (yes, AOA). But for normal flying we are essentially talking steady state flying which is normally level flight or close to it. OK, here is the formula I use for final approach speed: 58 + (1.5 * payload/100), i.e. 58 + (1.5 * 600/100) = 67 knots with 600 pounds of fuel, bags, and fat on board. So yes, it changes with weight. And as I said earlier, I add 15 knots for the base turn and I add 10 knots to everything for no flaps.

My goal is to not die or bend metal. I've calculated stall speed at different weights and then multiplied those times 1.3 to come up with a final approach speed. Since I don't yank and bank on final I'm essentially 1G level flight on final so those speeds keep me safe (and yes, at an appropriate AOA). I use a formula based on weight to come up with my approach speed. Since I rarely (if ever) exceed 30 degrees of bank on base, the extra 15 knots is plenty of stall margin. And, yes, I have plenty of time upside down and 90 degrees of bank at 9G's to know that wing loading is what counts. And for what it's worth, all those speeds are with full flaps. I add 10 knots to all speeds for no flaps.

All airplanes depend on AOA. However, very few GA airplanes have an AOA indicator so they aren't 'flown' by AOA. It's semantics. Bob

Well see? There's a big difference right there. Here is how I think about those two methods. Flying by airspeed. Referencing the airspeed indicator to maintain the speed determined to be proper for the situation. For example, if I am solo and am returning to the airport with 10 gallons remaining, my target speed on final will be 62 KIAS. If I am coming back to land because one of my passengers suddenly decided they need to pee and I'm at almost max gross weight, my target speed on final will be 72 KIAS. I try to maintain 15 knots above that in the base turn and I am aware that increasing G loading will increase my stall speed. Flying by angle of attack. Referencing an AOA indicator to ensure I do not exceed a critical value during turns and striving to maintain an ideal value on final. Bob

I'm assuming that was meant to be somewhat tongue in cheek. One power setting only works if the flight conditions are the same every time. Land with a 30 knot headwind and it will take quite a bit more power than normal. Land with a tailwind and it will take less. As a matter of fact, noticing that it's taking a lot less power than normal to maintain normal speed and glidepath is one of the biggest clues that you have a tailwind. Weight can make a significant difference in power required too. Now if you mean that you set a power, then adjust it as needed to keep the normal 'sight picture' out the window, I won't argue too much. If that is the case, you are using a TLAR visual AOA gauge. That might be OK as long as your seating position is exactly the same every time.

I'll wade in too... Never stalled? Does that mean you never flew a flight review? Who are the people that voted never? AOA indicators are a nice tool but they are not the do-all, be-all, cure to all problems. I've got maybe 2000 hours in planes with AOA indicators. The indication changes with every little twitch of the stick. IF I had an AOA in my plane, I would not fly it on final. Instead, I would use it to find the proper approach speed and then fly that airspeed. I might reference the AOA during the final turn. However, since I never horse the plane around the pattern and am willing to accept an overshoot of the final, I'm happy with just the airspeed indicator. I already calculate a good final approach speed based on weight and maintain about 15 knots above that on base. In the pattern, once I'm configured I only look at two things (assuming other traffic is not an issue), runway and airspeed... well, ok, I also check to make sure I'm not running my engine steady state in the yellow arc of the tachometer.

That, of course, assumes you are using maximum power. If you used a fixed lower percentage of power such as 65% or 75%, you actually go faster as you go higher until the thinner air makes it impossible to generate the desired power level.

There you go, forcing me to think again... How much faster by moving 200 lb from the front seat to the back seat? Short answer: At higher speeds (75% power) about 0.25 knots. At lower speeds (45% power) about 1 knot. That makes sense since the weight distribution will have the biggest effect when induced drag is a bigger player. As speed increases and parasite drag becomes the main factor, the distribution has less impact. So fly fast! Long answer: Using my J POH... Assume 15 feet from CG to tail center of lift and also assuming an average weight of 2400 lbs. Moving the CG 0.1' (1.2") will change the pitching moment by 240 #'. Divide that by 15' to determine the change in tail lift required to offset the moment and you get 240/15 = 16 lbs for each 1.2" change in CG location at 2400#. Looking at my particular airplane, moving 200 lbs from the front to the rear seat moves the CG about 3.6" (or close anyway, a little poetic license). That means a change of 48 lbs change in tail lift with corresponding 48 lb change in required wing lift. Call it the equivalent of 50 lbs less weight. According to my POH, a 440 pound difference in weight makes (approximately) a 2 knot difference in speed at 75% power, about a 4 knot difference at 65% power and about an 8 knot difference at 45% power. Since the CG shift resulted in about 1/9 th that amount, I can probably assume it have an a proportional effect on speed. Now, back to football. Bob

'78 J useful load of 970. If I'm going far and there are no mountains in the way I like to cruise at either 6500 or 7500, 2500 RPM, WOT, around 9.2 GPH (just barely LOP) getting about 157 KTAS. With mountains I'm usually between 9000 and 11,000, 2500 RPM, WOT, around 8.7 GPH going around 150 TAS. My wife does not like to sit more than about 3 hours. At 9 GPH, plus 10 gallon reserve, plus an extra 3 gallons for the climb, I only need 40 gallons at liftoff to do that (and go 450NM). That's 233# of 100LL. 970 - 233 = 737# of people and bags. If I max out the baggage at 120# I can still carry 617# of people. That's 3 big (206#) people or 4 small (154#) people. What my wife actually now prefers to do when it's just the two of us is to sit in the back seat. She has more leg room and can put her 'stuff' on the other seat in back. She downloads a few movies or TV shows to her phone before we leave. We plug the headphone out from her phone into the audio in jack in the back seat so she can hear the audio over her NC headset. I put the intercomm on isolate so her audio isn't interrupted by ATC. When she wants to talk to me she taps me on the shoulder and I put the intercomm back to ALL. When she is ready to go back to watching her movie she tells me to put it back to isolate (or I could use crew too). She's not very tall and says she can see better from the back seat too.

When I flew through RKS and LMT this summer, I just took a guess. I pulled the mixture out a couple inches to what seemed reasonable based on where it is in the climb at those altitudes when I'm using a target EGT. Once I was at full power just after brake release I took a look at the EGT and made a quick adjustment. If the EGT was too high I pushed it forward a bit. If the EGT was only a little low I didn't mess with it. If the EGT was way too low, I pulled the mixture out a bit. Once I got airborne and cleaned up I then leaned to target EGT. John Deakin uses the sawing method. He just pulls and pushes the mixture in and out feeling for the difference in power. Pull too far or push too far and the power drops. He finds the sweet spot for max power based on seat of the pants. I didn't have the nerve to try it though.

S..20, Welcome. Personally, when I was looking, I did not want to have to deal with carb ice (pretty humid in the pacific nw) so I was only interested in a fuel injected engine. That would be an E, F, J etc. (not a C). I ended up finding 3 partners and we got a J. If you can find a good partner or 2 it does wonders for the budget. Lets you get a newer/nicer plane and cuts down the fixed costs too. I'd also recommend joining the Beechtalk forum. Lots of non-Beech people on there and lots of non-Beech knowledge available. Best of luck.

If you are afraid of the answer, don't ask the question.

Our airplane sat untouched for 10 years in a hangar in northern CA. They had LASAR make it airworthy before LASAR sold it to us. LASAR did over $30,000 worth of work on it including replacing all the hoses, repaired the autopilot, every piece of electronics, prop, magneto, tires, brakes, etc. As for the engine, they did nothing internally. After we bought it, it developed morning sickness, probably from too many years of running ROP. Since we got that fixed and started running LOP, we have had no more problems. The first oil analysis had almost every metal in the red. We then changed the oil, flew it for 25 hours and did another analysis. Everything was in the green and has remained so for the past 3 years. We assumed the first analysis was seeing all the surface corrosion being scraped off. Once that was gone, there did not appear to be any continued excessive wear. I liked the idea above of pulling cylinders and looking inside. I also would consider asking the owner to fly the plane maybe 2 - 5 hours, then do an oil analysis and check the filter for metal. Change the oil and fly it for 10 more hours, then do another analysis. If the second one comes back clean that would be a good sign. It would also give you a chance to see what type of oil consumption it has. Ours has consistently gone through a quart about every 5 hours +/- since we got it. He might be more willing to do the flying with you if you agree to buy the gas. If you fly with him, it would also give you a chance to become familiar with the plane. Put an instructor in there with you for part of the time and you could even meet any dual time requirements the insurance company might have.

Kelty. There are lots of options. We went with the GTX345 and I've been happy with it. There are cheaper ways to get ADS-B OUT, but we wanted OUT and IN. There are also other ways to get OUT and IN. Many have installed the L3 system and been happy. While the GTX345 will display traffic and some weather on the 430 (we have a GTN650), I don't use it much. What I do instead is use Garmin Pilot on my tablet. I typically use a split screen with a moving map sectional on top and the traffic display on the bottom. With the touch of a button I can switch to weather and NOTAMS on the bottom.

Just a technicality, but at altitudes near sea level or in the landing pattern, I don't think we ever get 'behind the power curve' in our Mooneys. We get on the left side of the drag curve, but not behind the power curve. That is, we do frequently get to a point where a reduction in speed requires an increase in power to maintain speed and altitude, but we never get to a point (in level flight) where we do not have enough power to maintain altitude and airspeed. I haven't tried it, but I suspect that even at stall speed, we have enough excess power remaining to accelerate while maintaining altitude. However, climb to a high enough altitude where the engine cannot make much power and it might be possible to get behind the power curve. To me, being behind the power curve results in the famous 'Saber dance' of the F100 that tried to go around too late.

Or, add power to accelerate and simultaneously lower the nose to keep from climbing. Potato, Pattaato.

Congrats. I love spending other peoples money! Ya, our '78 J spits out everything over 6 quarts and then settles in at about 5 hours/quart. 1. I agree, ditch the ADF, we did with ours. 2. Get rid of the intercom and replace the audio panel with an audio panel that includes a 4 place intercom. Preferably one with built in bluetooth. That way you can: a. Talk to your back seat passengers. b. Connect your phone to the audio panel via bluetooth and use your headset to call FSS for an IFR clearance on the ground when you can't raise anybody on the radio. 3. I can't live without an HSI of some sort. 4. Get a Garmin GTX345 for ADS-B OUT/IN. 5. Replace the TC with the G5. 6. Now that they are available for the M20J, get Cies floats so you'll have an accurate fuel level indication. That might require a new fuel gauge. Enjoy yourself.

Three things. To the original topic: When I find I'm behind the plane and struggling to keep up it's time to quit. Or when I find that nobody I know is willing to ride with me, it's time to quit. Or if I'm flying along and can't figure out how to find something I need (but I used to), it's time to quit. Not there yet. Drivers license: I've thought for long time that we should have to take both a written and driving test every time. How long that license is good for depends on how well you do. If you get the minimum passing score on both, it's good for one year. Max both tests and it's good for 6 years. That way we check the weak drivers every year until they can no longer pass and we get them off the road. Airline pilots: I retired 2 years early just so the junior pilots could move up a number. Well maybe it was really because I'd had enough fun but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

1. It can be done either way. That was my point. Personally, since I assume you are setting up a situation that did not require full power, if my rate of climb was off I would use pitch to make a correction. If my speed was off I would use the throttle to make a correction. I also know that if I make a change in pitch or power, it is going to require an adjustment in the other. So when I make the required adjustment I will instinctively make an adjustment to the other in anticipation of a need of that adjustment. As you said in the opposite case of a 500 fpm descent (ILS/LPV), pitch is primary to maintain the glideslope, power is used to maintain airspeed. 2. Since I am not at stall speed (which I never should be), I would still use power to control speed and pitch to maintain altitude knowing that a change in one will require a change in the other. Let me pose a situation to you. You are in the flare for a landing (actually flying not preparing to fly by pumping the yoke on the ground) and you 3 feet too high. What do you use to control your altitude? Pitch or power? There is NO one right answer. Thrust is aligned with the fuselage so I use it to control in that dimension (speed). Lift is perpendicular to the fuselage so I use pitch to control in that direction (altitude). The exception again being max or no power situations. Like I said, it has worked for me so far (as taught to me by the USAF). Many others, including one of my partners chooses to use pitch for speed control and power for altitude control in the pattern. That's his (and everybody else's) choice. Because he only seems to correct one thing at time, when he pulls the nose up to slow from base turn speed to final approach speed we get REALLY high. Once on speed he pulls the power back to descend. This results in either a very steep final with, high sink rate, low airspeed, and low power. Makes me worry about stalling in the flare every time. Or a normal descent and a long landing. That's better except on short runways. If he does it again next time I fly with him I've decided to say something to him. If he keeps doing that I'm going to quit flying with him. To each his own. Bob

With all due respect to all parties... 1. Any change in one (power or pitch) will have an affect on the other and the pilot must be prepared to deal with it. 2. The ONLY time you MUST use pitch for speed control is when you have minimum (idle or engine failure) or maximum power. 3. All other times a pilot may choose to use either pitch or power to control speed and altitude. 4. I prefer to use the same technique all the time, not change depending on the situation (except as noted in #2 above). Therefore, I use power for speed and pitch for altitude. It's worked for my 19,000 hours so far. I use the yoke to make the airplane line up with the runway and to maintain the glideslope whether that be electronic or via eyeball. I use power to make the airplane give me the speed I want (to the best of my 64 year old ability). 5. MAKE the airplane do what you want. You fly it, it doesn't fly you. If you don't like what you see, do something about it using whatever technique you like. Just my opinion. Bob

I live in the area but can't make it due to previous family plans.

One more trick to keep in the bag. When you are told to divert to XXX, if ATC tells you to proceed direct to some fix, don't feel like you need to instantly set up your avionics and do it on your own. If you don't know where the fix is, ask ATC for an "initial vector while you set up your radios". Turn to the assigned heading, slow down, trim the airplane, THEN start setting up your cockpit.

One other way to buy time is preflight planning. Flying IFR to an airport? Look at all the approaches you might fly before you head to the airport. Anything unusual? Steep descent required? Course change at the FAF? Odd missed approach? Restrictions in the notes? Flying there when an alternate is required? Do the same thing for your alternate airport. And when picking an alternate, don't pick one that is 10 miles away. If the weather goes down at your destination, it will probably be down at your alternate too. If you pick one at least 25 miles away, and you do as midlifeflyer said and fly slowly, it should give you plenty of time to load and review the approach enroute. If you aren't ready when you get there you can always ask ATC for delaying vectors or a long final.

When was your last IFR certification? May be time to have the altitude encoder AND your altimeter checked.

I think it will give you: Attitude, airspeed, altitude and rate of climb. IF the internal GPS antenna works or IF you attach an external GPS antenna or IF you connect it to your GNS or GTN series GPS it will also give you: Ground track and ground speed. So in other words, it will give you everything you see there but it will not be able to connect to an autopilot. It will be primary for attitude and secondary for everything else. They were required by the FAA to disable the connection to an autopilot. For me, this makes it the perfect instrument to replace my turn coordinator. That would give me a battery backed up attitude indicator to look at if my ADI or vacuum pump quit while IMC. If my ADI lasts until the KI300 is available, then if my partners are willing to spend the money, I'd get the KI300 as a plug in replacement for my ADI/FD/KFC200 attitude source.