Long range tanks

[aviatoreb]

I really like not-installed O2.  I have an aerox portable system with an O2D2 regulator add on and oxyarm cannulas and mountain blue masks with built in mic, and I have two tanks both of which are M-22cf size.   I think it is convenient to have the bottle behind the copilot seat, and much cheaper and more convenient to have the bottles filled locally, and with two bottles it is easier to always have a full bottle to bring if I need that.

 

I like medical O2.  Why not?  Aviation O2 is much lower in H2O content but remember there is only one aviation standard.  So the same standard is used even in airliner tanks to fly in the tail cone at FL35 at -60F.  A carry on bottle sitting in the cabin with you --  i hope it is warmer than -60F, or even warmer than +0F.

[DonMuncy]

You can buy a compete new SkyOx Fifty Cubic Foot portable oxygen system including a cylinder with oxymizer cannulas, lines, a flow indicator, quick disconnects, and a spare mask for $609.70 direct from the manufacturer. If you go with a home health care tank and build up your own system you can do it even cheaper. Can any of you guys with built-in systems comment on your systems' long term upkeep expenses?

Jim

Each type tank has a service life and must be replaced (15 + years). Prices are variable. I changed mine 3 years ago for about $1200.

Periodic pressure testing of tank. The MSC sends it out every 5 year (I think), and I am not sure of the cost.

I had to replace a filling valve(about $500), but it was my own fault for ruining it.

Otherwise, filling costs are the only expense. Since I have my own filling set-up, it costs me about $6 per fill.

As I see it, the ability to take your tank and have it filled at the dive shop, would be a big plus for a portable system.

[Piloto]

I am curious, how many of you folks with LR tanks actually make flights that rely on those long range tanks, and if yes, how often in terms of percentage of your flights?

I have long range tanks on my M20J and they are a most for some on my trips. Twice a year I fly non-stop from KFXE to TJMZ fully loaded with gifts and stuff for my wife's family. There is no airline service between these two cities and the closest one SJU-MIA takes three hours by car to get to the airport. To add to the hassle everything would have to be pack for airline baggage. Very cumbersome when most of the stuff is gift wrapped. Before having the LR tanks I needed to stop at Providenciales for fuel and Customs and then at TJIG for Customs and then to TJMZ. Before I would be arriving for dinner, with the LR tanks I am now arriving for lunch. Yes it takes me about 5.5 hours town to town but by airline it takes 8+ hours. Not to mention that when I travel with my family I can not have a fix schedule. Cost wise just travelling by myself I save substantially since I do not have the extra baggage charges neither the need to rent a car to get from SJU to MAZ (3 hour drive). Neither car parking since I leave my car in the hangar.

 

Most M20M owners I have talk to have the LR tanks to fly long distances but at a higher power setting thus faster speed and less time. Specially when encountering headwinds that before would have required a fuel stop. Keep in mind that your 700nm Rocket can easily be a 500nm machine when travelling westbound with 50+kts headwinds and $9/gallon fuel stops.

 

What the LR tanks provides is flexibility, speed and range. Try that with a twice the cost for a GTN-750 or an Aspen.

 

José     

[fantom]

TJMZ is Mayaguez, Puerto Rico, for those interested. About 875 MN over a lot of ocean. Heck of a six hour flight, Jose!

 

No customs, I assume.

[bd32322]

Yes I go by the how long can I stay in the plane metric to calculate range.

However there have been cases where the north east has been blanketed with low clouds all the way to west Virginia and beyond on my way from boston to new Orleans  - but all clear south of there. The tanks would help in having the flexibility of not landing in the weather.

 

However maybe it can be managed with LOP operations - extend range at cost of speed - it certainly wont be comfortable sitting in there for a long time - but it is possible.

 

aviatorweb - I think the motor probably needs a top - looks like almost everyone needs a top at the 1000 hour mark with the continentals. Only a pre-buy will tell the full story though. If the plane is really in San Antonio, then its easy to get Don Maxwell on it I think unless he is booked for a year or something

[bd32322]

Maybe just with an expensive to overhaul engine, expensive fuel these days, that rockets are scaring off folks sort of like the way twins do?

 

 

As I see it - the rocket gives you flexibility - an owner can fly it at ovation speeds and get a better fuel burn ROP. Don't know about LOP operations since rocket hasn't posted those figures. I am comparing Rockets ROP figures with MAPA's test flights in ovations at 50 ROP - no I don't fly at 50 ROP before anyone cries out

 

Or an owner can go WOT and show the headwinds who is boss.

 

Not to mention flexibility with altitude.

 

I never understand the - "I wont fly at xyz altitude" - I had that frame of thinking when I was learning in Cessna 152 - but then that was because the plane could barely climb up to 5000 feet and it was time to come down by the time it made it there. I measure altitude by minutes instead - what percentage of my trip time will be spent in climb versus cruise - and that's where the rocket beats the 252s in my humble opinion - safety factors aside.

[RJBrown]

Can the O2 system be retrofitted or can it only be done by the factory?

O2 can be retrofitted. It does not need to be by the factory. It is expensive to do. Portable may be the easiest option.

O2 was not original equipment in 1979, from 1980 on it was.

 

A rocket burns 20gph @ 200KTS @ 12,000' with 100gal usable 1000 nautical range is easy, 76 gal is not enough to take advantage of the speed. Oxygen in any bottle is the same. Welding, medical or aviation it all comes out of the same tap at the plant.

 My rocket had on board O2. I always carried a portable backup system.

If you own the bottle you pay for recert. If the supplier owns the bottle and you lease they are responsible for the recert.

The lease I got in 1981 for welding bottles is still open. They may call it a 5 year lease but I have never seen a lease run out. Basically you pay for a new bottle to be added to their inventory and they will swap it out forever.

[Piloto]

TJMZ is Mayaguez, Puerto Rico, for those interested. About 875 MN over a lot of ocean. Heck of a six hour flight, Jose!

 

No customs, I assume.

Since Puerto Rico is US territory there is no Customs required either way if you fly non-stop to-from the US. A non-stop flight is a signficant advantage for this trip. However your plane needs to be inspected by the US Department of Agriculture before leaving for the US. I do this inspection at the same time I am refueling at TJBQ. It is more of a 5 minutes paper work compliance than an actual inspection since the inspector only ask if carrying any fruits. The inspection is free except during weekends or holidays were they will charge you $200 for it. This why I always leave on week days.

 

José 

[rainman]

I'm pretty sure I just saw the previously mentioned Rocket at All American on Kestral air park near San Antonio. If I was shopping now, it would have to be in the conversation . I live close by so I do see their inventory periodically. Their mechanic Ron Fisher is very knowledgable and straightforward. If you're truly interested call Dave or Jimmy.

[aviatoreb]

Does anyone else have that LASAR Extended Baggage - I never saw that before.  I don't see it on the LASAR list of STCs...I want that!

[PTK]

I believe it extends the bag compnt aft a couple feet for something like 50 or 60 lbs. I'd love to see some w&b numbers for this if anybody has them.

[bd32322]

I'm pretty sure I just saw the previously mentioned Rocket at All American on Kestral air park near San Antonio. If I was shopping now, it would have to be in the conversation . I live close by so I do see their inventory periodically. Their mechanic Ron Fisher is very knowledgable and straightforward. If you're truly interested call Dave or Jimmy.

I am in touch with them

[Piloto]

I believe it extends the bag compnt aft a couple feet for something like 50 or 60 lbs. I'd love to see some w&b numbers for this if anybody has them.

How can you extend the baggage area without blocking the tail cone access through the fuselage side access panel?. What I had heard is increasing the hat rack depth to allow for golf clubs or other long length items.

 

José

[FoxMike]

I had an E model which I had Laser do the extended  baggage area.  Worked pretty well but you had to be careful how much you put in that area.  The step had to be removed and electronics mounted in the area needed to be moved.  Back many years ago when I did this, airplanes did not have the electronics that they do now.  Jose is right you lose the fuselage side access panel but you gain an extra baggage door.  There are advantage and disadvantages to everything.

[aviatoreb]

How can you extend the baggage area without blocking the tail cone access through the fuselage side access panel?. What I had heard is increasing the hat rack depth to allow for golf clubs or other long length items.

 

José

 

That makes sense - all I really want to squeeze in is my 210cm XC skis - hardly heavy enough to alter weight and balance but not worth the trouble to move the electronics. Does anyone know if there is an STC out there for a ski tube?

 

Sorry to steal the thunder of the long range tanks....

 

I'm kind of in the "4 hours is enough for one bladder camp" school.

[PTK]

How can you extend the baggage area without blocking the tail cone access through the fuselage side access panel?. What I had heard is increasing the hat rack depth to allow for golf clubs or other long length items.

José

I don't know what they do with the tail cone access. I was wondering the same thing. Here's a photo.

[Alan Fox]

Normally Scuba dive tanks are filled with just plain air (80% Nitrogen and 20% Oxygen). But for extended deeper dives the ratio of N/O needs to be adjusted to avoid oxygen intoxication, which is due to the increased partial pressure of oxygen due to water depth pressure. By using Nitrox at different ratios the diver can stay longer and deeper. There is no flying benefit using Nitrox. Pilots only use oxygen. The objective of finding a dive shop with Nitrox capability is to fill your oxygen tank from the oxygen tank only at the dive shop. Unlike filling an installed tank the portable tank gets submerged in water while filling to keep the temperature down. This insures full pressure when you get the tank back to the plane and makes filling quicker. An installed tank filling may take an hour to allow some cooling. But what is worse is the pressure drop at altitude due to temperature. Keep in mind that the installed tank is out in the tail cone subject to temperatures below zero. So you loose pressure, even without using it.

 

José 

Actually the Nitrox helps to prevent nitrogen narcosis ,  The problem with nitrogen , is it can make you loupy and in a drunk like stupor , not good while diving , There two reasons for mixing gasses in scuba diving , one is for extending dive time without getting bent , the other is for really deep dives , I cant remember the differences , But people who mix gasses are really pushing the envelope......As far as Medical oxygen and aviation oxygen , as far as portables are concerned I dont believe it is regulated by the FAA , I have a a pair of medical bottles with a regulator and carry tote that I bought new on ebay , for less than 100.00 and it has been fine for the last 7 years , It is probably cheaper to replace them , than to hydro them when the time comes......  I use them more for the 8K to 12K altitudes , as I am not Turbocharged , and they dramatically reduce fatigue and headaches on the longer flights....  

[chrisk]

Actually the Nitrox helps to prevent nitrogen narcosis ,  The problem with nitrogen , is it can make you loupy and in a drunk like stupor , not good while diving , There two reasons for mixing gasses in scuba diving , one is for extending dive time without getting bent , the other is for really deep dives , I cant remember the differences , But people who mix gasses are really pushing the envelope......As far as Medical oxygen and aviation oxygen , as far as portables are concerned I dont believe it is regulated by the FAA , I have a a pair of medical bottles with a regulator and carry tote that I bought new on ebay , for less than 100.00 and it has been fine for the last 7 years , It is probably cheaper to replace them , than to hydro them when the time comes......  I use them more for the 8K to 12K altitudes , as I am not Turbocharged , and they dramatically reduce fatigue and headaches on the longer flights....  

As a diver I could not help but to respond.  NITROX is a mix of Nitrogen and Oxygen.  Normal air is Nitrox at 21% oxygen.  When a dive shop "makes" NITROX, they increase the Oxygen content to something like 32%.   One way to do this is to add pure O2 to a tank of normal air.  --So, the dive shop may have a bottle of pure O2 where they can fill your O2 tank.  --There are also other ways to make Nitrox that do not involve pure O2.

 

On the topic of diving, Nitrox is not used to go deeper.  It is typically used in the 80 to 130 foot depth range to extend the amount of time you can spend there.  This is because your body absorbs less nitrogen with a richer mix of O2.  There is a down side however.  If the mix of O2 is to high and the depth to  deep (high partial pressure of 02), oxygen toxicity can set in. (convulsions 100+ feet under water are probably fatal).  Anyway, on 32% Nitrox, you probably should not go deeper than 130 feet (some would say 111 feet).  With normal air, you can dive considerably deeper, you just don't want to stay there very long.

[JTMech70]

The long range tanks are great if you need the range. It is a considerable amount of work to put in. They are integral (wet wing) tanks. It is not something you can do yourself so you will be paying a shop to do it. There aren't a lot of parts but there is a lot of labor. If done right they are good. If not then you will be chasing leaks all the time.

Expect to pay several thousand. It requires an STC and a mechanic who really knows what he is doing.

[bd32322]

The long range tanks are great if you need the range. It is a considerable amount of work to put in. They are integral (wet wing) tanks. It is not something you can do yourself so you will be paying a shop to do it. There aren't a lot of parts but there is a lot of labor. If done right they are good. If not then you will be chasing leaks all the time.

Expect to pay several thousand. It requires an STC and a mechanic who really knows what he is doing.

 

Yeah I found out - its about 3k for the parts and 5-6k for labor.

[Rich]

There is really no longer any such thing as "aviation grade" oxygen. In the past, as BD32322 said, it had to do with limiting the amount of water in the oxygen, but welding supply businesss supply hospitals and FBO's. My cost to maintain built in O2 is about $300/5 years. The tanks must be removed and pressure checked for cracks and then reinstalled/refilled.

 

The FAA says only aviation grade oxygen should be used apparently. I wonder why or maybe the FAA wants to certify god's work ...

[RJBrown]

There is really no longer any such thing as "aviation grade" oxygen. In the past, as BD32322 said, it had to do with limiting the amount of water in the oxygen, but welding supply businesss supply hospitals and FBO's. My cost to maintain built in O2 is about $300/5 years. The tanks must be removed and pressure checked for cracks and then reinstalled/refilled.

Pressure test does not check for cracks. It checks to see if the bottle swells to much under pressure.

[Piloto]

Pressure test does not check for cracks. It checks to see if the bottle swells to much under pressure.

Cracks are indirectly checked by looking for water (under pressure) leaks around the tank neck and other areas. On a typical hydrostatic test the tank is filled with water under pressure to 150% of the rated pressure. The tank is submerged in a water containment tank and the tank under test expansion is measured by the water level rise on the containment tank.

 

José

[RJBrown]

Cracks are indirectly checked by looking for water (under pressure) leaks around the tank neck and other areas. On a typical hydrostatic test the tank is filled with water under pressure to 150% of the rated pressure. The tank is submerged in a water containment tank and the tank under test expansion is measured by the water level rise on the containment tank.

 

José

Absolutely correct. The purpose of the hydrostatic check is to test the structural integrity of the tank. In the process of doing the check any leaks would be exposed. After the test the pressure is left on the tank to check for pressure loss, thus checking for leaks.

[Alan Fox]

Absolutely correct. The purpose of the hydrostatic check is to test the structural integrity of the tank. In the process of doing the check any leaks would be exposed. After the test the pressure is left on the tank to check for pressure loss, thus checking for leaks.

Most tanks that fail the hydro usually fail for corrosion inside the neck , Oxygen is extremely corrosive....