Dueling over Dual Brakes

[FlyingAggie]

I need to make a decision about my new plane, which is currently in annual at LASAR.  The a/c at one time had dual brakes and at some point someone removed the right side master cylinders, but left the toe brakes.  The IA at LASAR doesn't like the toe brakes flopping around and insist we fix them.  It will cost about $500 to remove the toe brake/rudder pedals and install regular rudder pedals or about $2000 to reinstall the two master cylinders.  I thought it would be possible to just remove the toe brakes pedals, but the leaves a very narrow rudder pedal.

I like the idea of having dual brakes and they might be useful during my transition training, but I have about 7 hrs in the left seat with Mooney's, which didn't have dual brakes, and had no problems in the five or so landings.

Is it worth $1500 extra to have dual brakes?  Would it add anything to the resale value? I don't think Vref, NAAA Evaluator or Jimmy Garrison's MAPALog Value Model has an "add-in" for dual brakes.

Alan

[Parker_Woodruff]

I like having them in my plane, even though I rarely fly right seat in it.

 

It's definitely unique.  I agree with the IA not liking the pedals "flopping" around.  I've flown right seat in a plane that's done that and it's annoying and depending on the throw length, can be dangerous.

[Ned Gravel]

Quote: FlyingAggie

...

I like the idea of having dual brakes and they might be useful during my transition training, but I have about 7 hrs in the left seat with Mooney's, which didn't have dual brakes, and had no problems in the five or so landings.

...

Alan

[Immelman]

That's a tough call and I'd say it would depend on the type of flying you'd like to do -- what type of flying you want to do with other pilots/pilot friends, and how long you plan to own the plane.

Do you anticipate wanting to show off/share your airplane with other pilots and give them the left seat? I think you're in the clear to do so without adding them to insurance if you had the right side brakes. A friend of mine turned me on to Mooneys in his C model, and later 231, and insisted I take the left seat, and I really appreciated his generosity there. It led me to later buy a Mooney of my own

[RJBrown]

My old plane had no brakes on the right. Tough to let someone new in the left to see what is going on. My MSE has both. I don't think it adds retail value and it will add maintenance cost later. I'd rather have them but would not pay to add them.

 The only advantage to not having them came when I sold my last bird. The buyer sat left seat for the flight to close the deal. There was a pretty good cross wind on landing. He kind of panicked at about 150 feet from touchdown. Threw up his hands and said TAKE IT. Landing was a little sideways and he stabbed the brakes flat spotting the right tire through most of the cords. He did not even know the tire was now square on one side. We taxied in bump bump bump and he was clueless. After we tied it down and he started away from her I showed him the tire. At first he blamed me until I pointed out that he was the only one with brakes.

Points out a bad habit (for a Mooney) that those with castering nosewheels get in to. He had a Grumman that steered with brakes only. Being used to not having a steerable nose wheel he burned off a tire trying to get the plane straight.

I am based at APA and usually land on a 10,000' runway. I make a point of not using the brakes unless I have a reason to. I also try to not use the nose wheel as long as possible. Now that I pay for the tires and brakes I want them to last as long as they can.  

[Buster1]

I could hear that convo now!  "Wow, you really did it to that tire!"  "Uh...dude, you're the only one with brakes!"

Ha ha , nice.

[Piloto]

Have you heard the more stuff you have in a plane the greater the chances of something breaking. Adding another set of master cylinders is adding another possible source for leaks and brake failure. If the plane is no used for training don't put them on and save $2000 plus possible repairs later on.

José

 

[mjc]

I'm with Jose on this. You're spending a lot of money to add weight and complexity for a feature it sounds like you won't use. I would probably go a step further and ask the IA if there's a way to make the current pedals work, by binding them in a fixed position, to save most of the $500.

[FlyingAggie]

Edgar,

On the flight back to Denver yestreday,  I had been thinking along the same lines you suggested. 

I do want to get my IR, Commercial and maybe CFI using this plane.  I have about 7 hrs and 6 landings in the left seat of Mooney's without right side tow brakes, so Idon't think I'll have a problem. However, my wife has expressed interest in learning to "pitch hit" in an emergency and at least land.  Hopefully she'll want to get her ppl too---but probably a turbo charged high performance Mooney is not the best airframe for primary training, but she could transistion after doing the first 1/2 in a C172.

The seller discounted the price in order to have the regular rudder pedals installed, so my true incremental cost for installing the master cylinder is about $1,000. 

Alan

Quote: edgargravel

Alan:

My instructors at our Flying club would all like to have toe brakes on their side as I train for such things as a commercial ticket and finishing up my instrument rating.

Sometimes it limits my choices.

Don't know if that is worth $1,500, but if I had my druthers, I'druther have 'em.

[FlyingAggie]

Immelman,

Same with me:  Getting to fly the left seat (all three times the owners were CFI's) was a great convincer that I wanted a Mooney.

Alan

Quote: Immelman

That's a tough call and I'd say it would depend on the type of flying you'd like to do -- what type of flying you want to do with other pilots/pilot friends, and how long you plan to own the plane.

Do you anticipate wanting to show off/share your airplane with other pilots and give them the left seat? I think you're in the clear to do so without adding them to insurance if you had the right side brakes. A friend of mine turned me on to Mooneys in his C model, and later 231, and insisted I take the left seat, and I really appreciated his generosity there. It led me to later buy a Mooney of my own

[FlyingAggie]

RJ,

On a 231 I test flew last year, I unfortunately flat spotted a tire on landing.  I didn't realize how sensitive the brakes were compared to therental 172's.  I felt it only right to pay for a new tire and having it changed and chalked it up as a flight lesson.

After that experience, I have been extremely careful braking on Mooneys.

Alan

Quote: RJBrown

My old plane had no brakes on the right. Tough to let someone new in the left to see what is going on. My MSE has both. I don't think it adds retail value and it will add maintenance cost later. I'd rather have them but would not pay to add them.

 The only advantage to not having them came when I sold my last bird. The buyer sat left seat for the flight to close the deal. There was a pretty good cross wind on landing. He kind of panicked at about 150 feet from touchdown. Threw up his hands and said TAKE IT. Landing was a little sideways and he stabbed the brakes flat spotting the right tire through most of the cords. He did not even know the tire was now square on one side. We taxied in bump bump bump and he was clueless. After we tied it down and he started away from her I showed him the tire. At first he blamed me until I pointed out that he was the only one with brakes.

Points out a bad habit (for a Mooney) that those with castering nosewheels get in to. He had a Grumman that steered with brakes only. Being used to not having a steerable nose wheel he burned off a tire trying to get the plane straight.

I am based at APA and usually land on a 10,000' runway. I make a point of not using the brakes unless I have a reason to. I also try to not use the nose wheel as long as possible. Now that I pay for the tires and brakes I want them to last as long as they can.  

[FlyingAggie]

Jose,

I agree more systems, therefore more stuff to fail. Although from comments from some of the A&P's on the other Mooney mailing lists, master cylinders, once install and bleed, are pretty low maintenance. Since the plane had dual brake at one time all the plumbing is installed and active.  They just plumbed around where the MC's had been.

[FlyingAggie]

Michael,

I did discuss at length the options with the IA and he was adamant that the current setup is unacceptable and needs to be fixed or he won't sign off on the annual.  And like Parker commented having those toe brake pedals flopping around isn't good.  So I don't mind fixing a safety item.

Someone on the email lists suggested the lowest cost approach is install regular brakeless pedals and try to sale the toe brake/rudder peddles to someone like a CFI that might want to install toe brakes on the right side.

Alan

Quote: mjc

I'm with Jose on this. You're spending a lot of money to add weight and complexity for a feature it sounds like you won't use. I would probably go a step further and ask the IA if there's a way to make the current pedals work, by binding them in a fixed position, to save most of the $500.

[mjc]

My understanding is that an annual inspection is not a forum through which an IA can arbitrarily decide to ground an airplane. See http://www.avweb.com/news/savvyaviator/189103-1.html. Having the annual signed off with this as a discrepancy doesn't seem to apply in this case, since it sounds as though you agree that the pedals should be either connected or replaced. But I think it bears mentioning as a general point that your airplane isn't a prisoner of the IA subject to his every whim.

Michael

Quote: FlyingAggie

[231 Flyer]

I would like to add brakes to my right side "231"

[jetdriven]

Our plane has neither brakes nor rudder pedals on the right side.  What about removing them completely, and having the small tubes there?   It works for us.

[231 Flyer]

As an instructor, I would be more comfortable having brakes and pedals on the right side.  That way if I want to give a little dual I won't feel naked if the person makes a fubar of the stop on the runway

[Cris]

I've had planes with and without rt side brakes but always miss them if not there. I just did a photo mission & the non pilot photografher was in the left seat to do the shoot out the storm window. I could not have used my AC without rt side brakes. There always seems to be a reason that I wished I had them when I did not. 

[Skyatty]

It seems that if an instructor is  giving instruction in a Mooney, i would hope the student has sufficient prior piloting experience that stopping the airplane is not too big a challenge.  That said, the fact that our birds love to fly, particularly when they are too fast on final and will float seemingly endlessly, perhaps it is an issue.  But it presents a great opportunity to teach the pilot to go around if too fast rather than forcing a landing with too little runway remaining.

[231 Flyer]

Instructing in any airplane puts the safety of the flight responsibility completly on the back of the instructor.  Having dual brakes or not doesn't mean I wouldn't fly with someone of sufficient talent, only that I would prefer to have the option, if needed.

[jetdriven]

The other ting about instructing in your airplane, is the insurance going to cover you anyways in that operation?

[231 Flyer]

If I were trying to make a commercial gig out of this I would say no.  If someone wants to tag along and get a little experience in the left seat, then I'm still responsible and would be covered.

[kortopates]

Mooney provides a drawing and a kit for installing the right hand side brakes. These days it could take some time for them to put the kit together but I'd bet its very doable. Contact your local MSC and they'll in turn contact Mooney for availability.

I love our dual brakes on our 252. They proved really important after my wife transitioned to flying our Mooney 6 or 7 years ago. She really needed the rudder pedal extensions - i do not. Plus she needs the seat much higher than I. As an instructor, it was easy to just give her the left seat permanently. I fly exclusively from the right and we no longer need to make seat adjustments with every leg. And thanks to the right side brakes, I can taxi and land just as well from the right. And just as you mentioned, when someone wants to tag along they get the full experience from the left seat.