Decision Point - Engine Monitors

[Marauder]

There has been a number of threads on the value of engine monitors. I have been flying with a GEM 602 in my panel since 1993 (long before "Lean Of peak" was accepted). Great tool and a comfort to be able to look down and see temps where they should be.

 

Insight is offering a trade-in off towards the purchase of their new "G" series monitors. I am interested in the G4 which is scheduled to be released in the next week or so. When I got a quote for it, I was surprised to see that pricewise, the price was within the range of JPI 800 series. I'm now caught at a decision point about which way to go. Complicating it a bit more, is whether or not I should make the big jump to the 900 series. Here are my questions:

 

1) The Insight G4  and JPI 800 seem to perform the same basic functions. There are several differences in the way the information is presented. I like how RPM/MP is presented on the JPI. For those of you who own either a G3 or 800 series, what do you like or don't like about the functionalities they provide?

 

2) The G4 has some built in diagnostics for the probes and also other tools (some proposed) for vibration analysis. For the G3 owners, do you use any of this information? For 800 series owners, are there built diagnostics to tell you a probe has gone bad?

 

3) The price difference between the 800 and 900 series seems to be in the $1600 range for the basic instrument. I'm sure there are hidden costs for installation that I have yet to discover. For those of you who own the 900 series, do you have an idea how much installation ran you? Since the unit is capable of replacing factory gauges are there more installation concerns/costs (like fuel tank senders)?

 

4) The form factor for the G4 and 800 series appear to be the same except that the 800 overlays the panel. There is an adapter to allow it to be flush mounted. For those who have their units flush mounted, were there any surprises?

 

Thanks for the feedback.

 

 

[carusoam]

The JPI 900 series can be mounted flush. It looks nice on one of our members photo collections....it can also be used as primary engine instrumentation. Data download from the front using a memory stick is convenient.

I believe, installing the newer Gem in place of the older version may have a small challenge, the new instrument "can" is shorter and several wires may come up short during installation.

Otherwise all are good, more data is better,

To install all functions EGT, cht, ff, fuel level, oat, can be expensive.

That's what I got from my research. Makes the JPI 830, a good functional upgrade to my JPI700...

Best regards,

-a-

[jlunseth]

I do not recall exactly what the installation cost was for my 930, but I think around 3,500 .  Mine is a 6 cylinder. There is no installation of fuel tank senders, the factory senders are used unless you go out of your way to purchase new senders.  When I installed mine, JPI did not have resistive sensors, they had basically the same type as the factory Mooneys and I am not even sure they had senders that were STC'd for installation in a Mooney, at any rate I still have the factory senders.  Could not get a direct answer from EI on whether their resistive sensor would work with the JPI.

  

 

There are quite a few sensors mounted to the engine though.  The A&P can probably reuse some of the sensors for your GEM, but if I were you I would have all new installed.  Engine temp probes have improved quite a bit, and you would prefer to have all the same sensors on each of the cylinders, rather than one type on three cylinders and a different type on the fourth.

 

If you go with the JPI's that are STC'd as primary you can remove all the gauges from your panel for which it is STC'd, such as CHT, EGT, MP, RPM, OilP, OilTemp, etc.  Takes alot of junks out of the panel and puts it all together where you can see it when you need to.  Even better is to move the JPI to the pilot side panel next to your six pack, then you can have it in your scan for IFR.  That has saved my bacon more than once, any issue with the engine is seen immediately.

[co2bruce]

I have the EDM 730 (6 Cyl) . Fits in 2 1/2 inch hole, and provides tons of information in an easy to read format. Bigger screen than the G4. Not quite as clean looking on the panel.

[AndyFromCB]

I simply upgraded my GEM to G1, I didn't care about the rest of the parameters, just wanted to a clear presentation of CHT, EGT and TIT. I'm very happy with it and the total installation cost was about 2 hours.

[Bob_Belville]

My JPI 930, finished in Dec. 2012, was $5295 plus 36 mh to "remove all existing engine instruments and replace with the JPI EDM 930 engine monitoring system. Remove fuel senders from fuel tanks and reinstall after overhaul." (Overhaul of the senders added $364.36.)

 

Note: I was able to sell the old engine gauges, JPI 450 and tach/man press instruments, etc reducing net cost by about $900.

 

As reported elsewhere, I am extremely happy with this upgrade to my '66 E.

[N601RX]

I have the JPI 830 and am happy with it.  I purchased at Oshkosh and got the show discount.  If a sensor goes bad or wire breaks, that part of the display will go blank.  The install took about 2 days.

[Marauder]

My JPI 930, finished in Dec. 2012, was $5295 plus 36 mh to "remove all existing engine instruments and replace with the JPI EDM 930 engine monitoring system. Remove fuel senders from fuel tanks and reinstall after overhaul." (Overhaul of the senders added $364.36.)

 

Note: I was able to sell the old engine gauges, JPI 450 and tach/man press instruments, etc reducing net cost by about $900.

 

As reported elsewhere, I am extremely happy with this upgrade to my '66 E.

 

Bob  -- thanks for sharing the photo. Helps put the real estate requirements for a Mooney in perspective. The $5295 is close to prices I am seeing for the unit itself. Knowing the installation hours plus the real estate needs, I don't think without a major panel redesign I will have the room.

 

The attached photo is the space I have available. Does anyone have a 800 series installed in this location? If so, could you post a picture? Anyone have pictures of one recessed?

[N601RX]

The rectangular display on the 830 is offset from the 3-1/8 round hole, so it looks like it would fit if the display is turned downward.  It would cover the top part of your checklist. JPI has a drawing with dimensions on their website

[Bob_Belville]

Looks like you'd have to do a new panel to do the 930. With the dual Aspens you can lose some of the steam gauges, can't you? The 930 really cleaned up my panel by removing the engine cluster (and getting the oil and fuel lines out of the cabin), the tach, man/fuel pressure gauge etc. Here's what my old panel looked like:

[Marauder]

I believe, installing the newer Gem in place of the older version may have a small challenge, the new instrument "can" is shorter and several wires may come up short during installation.

Otherwise all are good, more data is better,

To install all functions EGT, cht, ff, fuel level, oat, can be expensive.

That's what I got from my research. Makes the JPI 830, a good functional upgrade to my JPI700...

Best regards,

-a-

 

For a GEM 602 to a G4 conversion, the only thing that will be kept are the probes for CHT/EGT. I actually installed the 602 under an IA supervision and I left the leads a bit long since I knew at some point I wanted to move the 602.So hopefully I should be good there. The price I received for the G4 was within $500 of the 830 in a probe to probe price comparison.

 

As for the data collection -- absolutely spot on. Flying with the 602 for years I would love to have a history of my temps. As my plane's engine is entering the second 1000 of TBO, I would love to keep a closer tab on it.

[Marauder]

The rectangular display on the 830 is offset from the 3-1/8 round hole, so it looks like it would fit if the display is turned downward.  It would cover the top part of your checklist. JPI has a drawing with dimensions on their website

 

It would be good to see one in this configuration. If I keep the JPI unit proud of the panel, I suspect the throttle lever will be up against it in a full throttle position.

[N601RX]

Here is the outline dimensions.  I think it sticks out about 1/2".  I can measure next time I'm at the plane.

 

I would basically go down 1" below the round hole.

730_layout.pdf

[Marauder]

Looks like you'd have to do a new panel to do the 930. With the dual Aspens you can lose some of the steam gauges, can't you? The 930 really cleaned up my panel by removing the engine cluster (and getting the oil and fuel lines out of the cabin), the tach, man/fuel pressure gauge etc. Here's what my old panel looked like:

 

I could lose the airspeed indicator and altimeter with the external battery pack on the MFD. If I removed them, slid the AI over above the TC (required for the STEC), that still would require me to move the STEC controller to get enough real estate. And subsequently a major panel mod. Not sure I can get the better half to go along with another major upgrade. I'm trying to slide this one through as a "safety enhancement". Her response with these kinds of dollars being laid out would be "isn't it safer to just sell it?".

[Marauder]

Here is the outline dimensions.  I think it sticks out about 1/2".  I can measure next time I'm at the plane.

 

I would basically go down 1" below the round hole.

 

Thanks for the diagram. It would be nice to confirm the actual portion above the panel. The throttle is a big lever and in full throttle it might hit.

[Bob_Belville]

Heh, heh. Safety has always worked on my better half. From Stormscope and STEC 35 years ago to Aspen and GTN 750 more recently. 

[JaredDavis]

Can the G series set off an external alert when a limit is exceeded?

[Marauder]

Heh, heh. Safety has always worked on my better half. From Stormscope and STEC 35 years ago to Aspen and GTN 750 more recently. 

 

Sounds like we went down the same justification path, only the Stormscope was already installed

 

I was able to get the STEC 60 in the 90s on "safety" and the recent avionics upgrade on "safety" -- (using the line that my radios were really old and unreliable). Since I just finished my last "the sky is falling" safety cry in December, I'm not so sure she will buy it...

[Marauder]

Can the G series set off an external alert when a limit is exceeded?

 

I don't believe so Jared. From what I am reading is that it will do like my 602 has always done -- blink a column when something is out of whack.

[jlunseth]

If you to to www.jpitech.com and fish around you will find installation manuals and specifications that include dimensions and cutouts for the various JPI units.  At least I think that is the correct website, they have two, I believe the other is https://www.jpinstruments.com/ but I think jpitech is the one with the manuals and technical information.

[Marauder]

If you to to www.jpitech.com and fish around you will find installation manuals and specifications that include dimensions and cutouts for the various JPI units.  At least I think that is the correct website, they have two, I believe the other is https://www.jpinstruments.com/ but I think jpitech is the one with the manuals and technical information.

 

Thanks! I will check them out. I spoke with my mechanic today. Using N601RX's layout diagram and the installation manuals you provided, we should be able to determine if I can fit one in the panel. I'm really concerned about the throttle in full open position.

[carusoam]

Look for Craig's panel pictures for Aspen and JPI locations...

No vacuum equipment there.

Best regards,

-a-

[M20F-1968]

Try looking at utilizing the space above your audio panel for the JPI 930.  You can probably make that space bigger by removing your #2 Nav/Com and replacing it with an Apollo SL30 (much thinner) and moving the other radios and audio panel down.  Then put in the JPI 930 which will allow you also replace all of your old engine gauges.  For what it is worth, a picture of my panel is attached.

 

John Breda

[Marauder]

Try looking at utilizing the space above your audio panel for the JPI 930.  You can probably make that space bigger by removing your #2 Nav/Com and replacing it with an Apollo SL30 (much thinner) and moving the other radios and audio panel down.  Then put in the JPI 930 which will allow you also replace all of your old engine gauges.  For what it is worth, a picture of my panel is attached.

 

John Breda

Thanks for the suggestion John! I've got secret plans for that space -- just don't tell my wife I think if I go down the 930 path I should probably think about a full panel remake including pulling out the non needed factory gauges.

Based on the limited space I have and the fact I put a fair amount already into my plane this year, it looks like the 830 will be my best choice. At least for the time being.

So, does anyone ever wonder if this is how Sarah Winchester got started on the endless building?

[Cris]

 

I believe, installing the newer Gem in place of the older version may have a small challenge, the new instrument "can" is shorter and several wires may come up short during installation.

Best regards,

-a-

Anthony makes a good point with the size of the new unit. In upgrading from a Gem 610 to a G2 I had to purchase a new 8' harness which I complained about. I think that has been resolved as the web site now shows that the "new upgrade" includes a new 8' harness but without the probes. In addition the probe analysis saved me countless hours of troubleshooting as it immediately showed which probe had a loose connection when we tested the installation. That feature also allows for replacement of a probe as it nears the end of its usefull life as it is constanly monitored.