Garmin Pilot disappointment

[redbaron1982]

After ForeFlight got acquired by a private equity, and known how private equity companies works, I decided to cancel my subscription and move over to Garmin Pilot.

Today I finally went for it, and it ended with cancelling my subscription 30 minutes after I started it.

The first thing that I tried was to import from ForeFlight my logbook. I got an "Error importing logbook" message, no indication of what was going on, anything. I reached out to support, and they didn't know what was going on either, and asked me to start manually splitting my logbook into smaller chunks. Before doing that I checked if there was any useful message in Chrome's dev console, and there was: "Fligth table cannot be found" or something. So I fixed the CSV export from ForeFlight (it had some extra white spaces that confused Garmin) and I got to the next step. Now I got a lot of "unrecognized" columns. Some that were important for currency, like "Landings" or "Takeoffs". I asked to the support guy if I had to update all this manually, and he said yes.

I was still trying to make this work, so I went and finish the import and looked at the result: first, the UI is ugly, it looks like a web page from the 2000s. And then, all currencies were messed up. My IFR currency was showing 0 instrument approaches, when I actually had 6 in the last 6 months. I mean, the approaches were showing up in the logbook entries, but it was not counting towards my currency.

At that point I said this is enough and ask the support guy to cancel my subscription.

The thing that pissed me off the most is that the support guy was like "yeah, this is how it works" and when I asked to cancel the subscription he said "ok" and just cancelled it. Literally no intention to make the product work for me.

I really wanted to migrate, I do see some advantages (its a bit cheaper than Forefligt, I can use my Android tablet as a backup, etc)... but I was shocked by the bad quality of, at least, the logbook part of the app.

[toto]

3 minutes ago, redbaron1982 said:

Before doing that I checked if there was any useful message in Chrome's dev console

It sounds like you were using the Garmin Pilot web version? This is very very new, and I have almost zero experience with it - sounds like it might still have some rough edges. 

I’ve used GP for years both on iOS and Android, and I think it’s a solid EFB. One of the key advantages to GP over ForeFlight for me is the real-time engine data that gets streamed from Garmin EIS. You can view the engine data in the app during flight (which I always think would be valuable if the LCD crapped out) and it’s also captured in the Garmin logbook. The automated logbook is pretty neat, because it syncs the engine parameters with a graphical depiction of your flight - so if you want to look back and see what the engine was doing at any point, you have it right there in GP. 

I don’t use GP as my primary logbook - I use MyFlightBook for that - but I’m interested to hear more about the web app and happy to help on any iOS app questions if I can.

[midlifeflyer]

We all decide what's important to us but it's Interesting that you are rejecting an EFB app 30 minutes into a 30-day free trial because of a feature that has nothing to do with flight planning or in-flight usage (and, parenthetically, which I have exactly zero interest in using), 

[PeteMc]

Just to confirm...  You did take the .CSV file you Exported from ForeFlight and then copied over the data from each column (minus the Header) into the appropriate column in the G Pilot .CSV Template?  Then you Imported the G Pilot .CSV Template into G Pilot? 

It also appears that Pilot deals with Aircraft differently, so you don't want the Aircraft Section at the top of the Export from FF.  Probably the best way would be to search for a specific N# and then with that list it would be easer to copy the Aircraft Type into the appropriate fields. 

As for the potential changes in FF due to the sale, I figure it will take a while before it trickles down.  So I'm in a wait-and-see mode to see if market pressures win out and there won't be much change in the CURRENT product.  More likely there will just be no improvement and FF will stager.  That will give Pilot, or whomever, time to get their act together to then have surpassed FF and we can move to a more superior product vs going backwards just because we don't like that FF sold. 

 

 

Edited Saturday at 08:37 PM by PeteMc

[redbaron1982]

1 hour ago, toto said:

It sounds like you were using the Garmin Pilot web version? This is very very new, and I have almost zero experience with it - sounds like it might still have some rough edges. 

I’ve used GP for years both on iOS and Android, and I think it’s a solid EFB. One of the key advantages to GP over ForeFlight for me is the real-time engine data that gets streamed from Garmin EIS. You can view the engine data in the app during flight (which I always think would be valuable if the LCD crapped out) and it’s also captured in the Garmin logbook. The automated logbook is pretty neat, because it syncs the engine parameters with a graphical depiction of your flight - so if you want to look back and see what the engine was doing at any point, you have it right there in GP. 

I don’t use GP as my primary logbook - I use MyFlightBook for that - but I’m interested to hear more about the web app and happy to help on any iOS app questions if I can.

Yeah, I was using the web version, just trying to copy over all the info I have in ForeFlight over to GP. The experience was so bad, with the app itself and with support that I decided that it was enough.

Now I realized that after the cancellation they gave me a 30 days free demo (I used the original 30 days demo a couple of years ago). So maybe I'm going to give it another try inflight.

Thanks for the advise on MyFlightBook, in 2 minutes I was able to import all my logbook entries from FF and everything matches, my currency is showing up correctly, etc.

[redbaron1982]

5 minutes ago, PeteMc said:

Just to confirm...  You did take the .CSV file you Exported from ForeFlight and then copied over the data from each column (minus the Header) into the appropriate column in the G Pilot .CSV Template?  Then you Imported the G Pilot .CSV Template into G Pilot? 

It also appears that Pilot deals with Aircraft differently, so you don't want the Aircraft Section at the top of the Export from FF.  Probably the best way would be to search for a specific N# and then with that list it would be easer to copy the Aircraft Type into the appropriate fields. 

 

I did not, I followed Garmin's official procedure, basically: export from FF, import back in GP. Both the web and the support tech I talked to, indicated that that was the process to follow.

[McMooney]

i'm not understanding, your problem was not correctly formatting a csv ?

Edited Saturday at 08:58 PM by McMooney

[redbaron1982]

4 minutes ago, McMooney said:

i'm not understanding, your problem was not correctly formatting a csv ?

My problem was having a really bad first experience with GP. The first thing I tried to do was to import all the data I have in ForeFlight. I followed Garmin's procedure and it failed with "Something went wrong" type of error. I reach out to support, and they were not able to help me. I had to debug GP using Chrome's dev tools to get the import to work. Even after that, the logbook entries were all messed up.

[Jackk]

I’m sticking with FF, private equity wants money, foreflight has TONS of business / contracts with everyone from 135s, training centers to .mil.   They are not going to risk killing a cash cow they paid big bucks for.

 

 If anything since the acquisition Foreflight has had some improvements, dynamic approach plates, CFI referrals, detecting towered landings in logbook, plan view for turb & ice. I’d dare say it’s been better under the new leadership vs Boeing 

 

 Now it’s not as good as the company was prior to Jepp/Boeing buying it, but still leaps and bounds better than the competition (aside from the free fltplan go for basic VFR stuff) 

 

 I’d think a average intelligent dev, one of the first things they do would be to make it easy wizard or automated import to for their competitors formats, the easier to take my competitors customers the better, seems like a no brainer, especially when you’re not the leader of the pack 

Edited Saturday at 09:17 PM by Jackk

[McMooney]

40 minutes ago, redbaron1982 said:

My problem was having a really bad first experience with GP. The first thing I tried to do was to import all the data I have in ForeFlight. I followed Garmin's procedure and it failed with "Something went wrong" type of error. I reach out to support, and they were not able to help me. I had to debug GP using Chrome's dev tools to get the import to work. Even after that, the logbook entries were all messed up.

CSV's can be tough, extra spaces, incorrect field delimiters, line delimiters,  field order,  blah blah blah, it's NOT easy.  if i remember correctly ff and garmin both let you pick the fields to export, meaning you may have something which looks nothing like what's expected.   it's not trivial.  Best i can usually do, give the user a specification and say do this or pay me to import it for you.

Thinking, if you gave up after 30mins due to some understandable CSV import issue, you had probably already decided GP wasn't for you

[redbaron1982]

5 minutes ago, McMooney said:

CSV's can be tough, extra spaces, incorrect field delimiters, line delimiters,  field order,  blah blah blah, it's NOT easy.  if i remember correctly ff and garmin both let you pick the fields to export, meaning you may have something which looks nothing like what's expected.   it's not trivial.  Best i can usually do, give the user a specification and say do this or pay me to import it for you.

Thinking, if you gave up after 30mins due to some understandable CSV import issue, you had probably already decided GP wasn't for you

There are multiple misconceptions and wrong assumptions in your post:

1) I really wanted GP to work for me. I mentioned some of the reason why I wanted to migrate to GP.

2) Foreflight doesn't allow you to select which columns to export.

3) GP doesn't allow you to select which columns to import

4) CSV are tricky, but I'd expect GP devs are up to the task. One of the issues were extra spaces, as you mentioned. A simple "trim" of the input, which is common sanitization process when handling user input. As an exmaple, MyFlightBook imported FF CSV without any issue. Same user (me), same computer, same file, it failed with GP, but it worked with MyFlightBook.

Edited Saturday at 10:01 PM by redbaron1982

[Schllc]

My understanding was that if you have a data subscription from Garmin for a panel, you get GP for free. Is this incorrect?

[N201MKTurbo]

When I first started using FF logbook, I had to import 30 years of logbook info into FF. I had been using software I created in the early 90s in Borland Delphi. It was a bit of a chore to export the data. I had to find a copy of a database utility that has been unsupported for like 20 years. After I got it all in CSV, it took quite a few hours to reformat it into something that FF liked.

FWIW, for $100/hour, I'll get it in for you.

[toto]

2 minutes ago, Schllc said:

My understanding was that if you have a data subscription from Garmin for a panel, you get GP for free. Is this incorrect?

It would be nice if that were so, and it would be a great value-add for people who drop a ton of money into their panel… but no, you have to pay full price for GP even if you have a OnePak subscription. 

They used to include an upgrade from “standard” to “pro” with a OnePak but that’s all over now. 

[toto]

1 minute ago, N201MKTurbo said:

When I first started using FF logbook, I had to import 30 years of logbook info into FF. I had been using software I created in the early 90s in Borland Delphi. It was a bit of a chore to export the data. I had to find a copy of a database utility that has been unsupported for like 20 years. After I got it all in CSV, it took quite a few hours to reformat it into something that FF liked.

FWIW, for $100/hour, I'll get it in for you.

I’ve been entering old logbook entries into MyFlightBook for years, and I’m not sure if I’ll ever get it finished. But you can always make one entry with all of the column totals to bring your electronic flight log up to current. Then it doesn’t matter so much when (or if) you finish entering the old stuff. 

[N201MKTurbo]

1 minute ago, toto said:

I’ve been entering old logbook entries into MyFlightBook for years, and I’m not sure if I’ll ever get it finished. But you can always make one entry with all of the column totals to bring your electronic flight log up to current. Then it doesn’t matter so much when (or if) you finish entering the old stuff. 

Sure, but it is nice to have everything in one place. There have been quite a few times I have remembered a flight from the past. It is great to be able to look it up. 

I quit using paper logbooks in about 1990. So everything is in a database of some sort. When I first went electronic, I had about 10 years of paper logbooks to enter. That was a PITA.

[toto]

Just now, N201MKTurbo said:

Sure, but it is nice to have everything in one place. There have been quite a few times I have remembered a flight from the past. It is great to be able to look it up. 

I quit using paper logbooks in about 1990. So everything is in a database of some sort. When I first went electronic, I had about 10 years of paper logbooks to enter. That was a PITA.

In my early flying years, for whatever reason, I would log every leg of a trip as a separate flight. So it took forever to enter those into a spreadsheet. And my instructor chicken scratch logbook entries from early training days were just almost impossible to read. 

Fortunately the later entries are easier, where I compress multiple stops into a single logbook row, and I don’t have to try to reproduce instructor shorthand in my digital log. Still, it’s a painful effort. 

[redbaron1982]

I guess off topic of the main thread, but talking about logs. Is there any value in having the physical logbook scanned? Are there any requirement for a logbook to be considered legal? Mainly the entries for flight reviews or similar.

[N201MKTurbo]

2 minutes ago, redbaron1982 said:

I guess off topic of the main thread, but talking about logs. Is there any value in having the physical logbook scanned? Are there any requirement for a logbook to be considered legal? Mainly the entries for flight reviews or similar.

I think the only flight reviews that you need are the current ones. The only legal requirement is for currency and for qualifications for a new certificate.

I could be wrong. I'm sure someone will correct me if I am.

[toto]

9 minutes ago, redbaron1982 said:

I guess off topic of the main thread, but talking about logs. Is there any value in having the physical logbook scanned? Are there any requirement for a logbook to be considered legal? Mainly the entries for flight reviews or similar.

61.51 has a lot of detail for what’s required to be logged. For flight review endorsements or similar I always have them in a physical book and then I attach a photo of the endorsement to the flight record in MyFlightBook. 

I’ve never bothered to make digital scans of my physical logbooks, but I think they’re worth having. If your old logbooks are lost or destroyed, the digital scans would be pretty reliable evidence of your flight experience. 
 

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/61.51

[LANCECASPER]

46 minutes ago, Schllc said:

My understanding was that if you have a data subscription from Garmin for a panel, you get GP for free. Is this incorrect?

If you had a OnePak you used to get the premium upgrade for Garmin Pilot free, but you still had to buy the basic Garmin Pilot. They have since taken that benefit away.

[McMooney]

is this true?  if so, i can switch to jepp and get databases for both the 355 and 480 and come out close to the same as i'm paying garmin for the 355

[PeteMc]

10 hours ago, redbaron1982 said:

I did not, I followed Garmin's official procedure, basically: export from FF, import back in GP. Both the web and the support tech I talked to, indicated that that was the process to follow.

Weeelllll....  I've talked to way too many Support people that are only capable of reading the script.  Takes a while to get to someone that actually knows what's going on.  

Below is what's from Garmin's website.  And where they're saying reformat to match the Pilot .CSV is where I was saying to Copy the column out of FF and Paste it into the appropriate column in the Garmin Pilot .CSV file.  Less chance of accidentally messing up one of the Headers if you're trying to move and rename in the original FF .CSV.  And there may be extra columns that get left over, etc. 

 

NOTE: If an error appears stating the action could not be completed, follow the steps below to verify that the format of the CSV file follows the layout of the flyGarmin.com logbook template.

The template can be found on the Import Pilot Logbook page of flyGarmin.com.

On the right side, find "Can I import from a custom spreadsheet?"

The link to download the template is located below.

Reformat the third party CSV to match the flyGarmin.com template.

Repeat the steps above for the CSV import.

 

[toto]

1 hour ago, McMooney said:

is this true?  if so, i can switch to jepp and get databases for both the 355 and 480 and come out close to the same as i'm paying garmin for the 355

If you’re asking about the OnePak, it’s a pretty good deal relative to having separate subscriptions for each unit. It costs about the same for my whole panel as it used to cost for just my 696 if I had all of the databases on rolling subscription. I’ve never had a OnePak with Jepp charts though, so I’m not sure what nuance might exist there.

Now that Garmin has SmartCharts on GP, I’m hoping never to look at an old paper plate-style chart again

 

[midlifeflyer]

13 hours ago, redbaron1982 said:

I guess off topic of the main thread, but talking about logs. Is there any value in having the physical logbook scanned? Are there any requirement for a logbook to be considered legal? Mainly the entries for flight reviews or similar.

Yes, there is value in scanning your paper logs. A simple one - evidence of what it contained if the original is lost or stolen.

The only real legal issue for the logbook owner is, as you mention, the validity of endorsement signatures. But even that would depend on whether there was some reason to question it.