Retract Gear or Flaps First in a Go Around ?

[1980Mooney]

15 hours ago, hazek said:

Not that I think highly of the Bravo POH, it's dogshit actually. But would be cool to know what their reasoning was for prescribing the go around procedure to be flaps gear flaps. Anyone know?

I think it means "Full 33 degree flaps reduced to take-off (I think it is 10 degrees on the Long Body), then raise Gear, and then reduce Take-off (10 degrees) to 0 degree Flaps".   

It has been discussed before and the consensus was that mid-body Mooney's don't climb very well with Full Flaps. Perhaps with more power in your Bravo it would not be as noticeable but still degraded.  

 

[1980Mooney]

Since this was posted on the Modern Mooney forum, we have not heard from our J-bar pilots.  I bet they would say that they are not wasting any time messing with flaps and that they want to get the gear up ASAP so that they don't have a wrestling match with the J-bar.

[PeteMc]

6 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

Since this was posted on the Modern Mooney forum, we have not heard from our J-bar pilots.

Actually, @jamesm did chime in about getting the gear up.  I have limited time with the manual gear, but I learned quickly why it is so important.  

 

[Ibra]

9 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

creates a sub-optimal (I would argue unsafe) situation to be dancing "flaps, gear, flaps" during a forced go-around.

I think it better in Mooney's without a "takeoff" flap preselect to compromise and set up to land with "take-off" 15-degree flaps.  That way you are set up to go around without thinking about it - without having to fumble/bumble looking down at a hard to see indicator (especially at night) to raise from Full Flaps to the Take-off Flaps mark on the indicator before raising Landing Gear.  If set up with "take-off" flaps, once you break out or know the runway is clear, you can throw in the remaining flaps with a single press of the flap actuator switch (and not having to look) if you think it is needed.Everything in aviation is a compromise

That's my logic of thinking about it, does it matter? does it involve a  compromise and what is at stake? can I use judgement to avoid situation with compromise? 

* I usually land with 1/2 flaps, so go-around is trivial, this rarely involve any compromise as it's usually optimal: gusty conditions on long runway 

* In cases where I land with full flaps are usually cases where I tend to go-around higher with plenty of speed, raising gear or flaps make no difference, I can even climb with full flaps (if they fail).

The only case where compromise is involved is balked landing on short runway after long landing in calm hot conditions, it's very unlikely but one should never say never. 

In this "unlikely case", I am on full flaps, slow speeds and not much runway left for go-around. In this case, I tend to prefer gaining speed in ground effect, raise gear to accelerate and then raise flaps. I had it probably twice and worked, one has to beleive in building speed even with obstacles in front, I could have fiddled with retracting flaps while climbing steeper. However, I prefer to see where I am going, worst case I am still in ground effect, if I am not going to make it: pull mixture, cut the loss and hope for the best.

I think lot of things in aviation are "done in a rush" for "optimal performance", however, one rarely need to get to do that except few unlikely cases? For example, applying max power immediately on go-around, this only make sense in few exceptional cases. Most of the time, one can apply 1/2 power initially, fly level and re-trim, it's not "optimal" but it's "easier" than fighting with yoke !

Another example is applying full power and raising nose immediately after stall recovery for minimal altitude loss

It's optimal but high risk as the order and timing matters, it also re-inforces the wrong idea of raising nose and power to recover from stall (the syllabus now teach stall recovery without power).

An "optimal go-around" with minimum energy loss will involve immediate power with flaps-gear-flaps where flap retraction is done at optimal speeds before climbing at Vx to 50ft in short distance, this is rarely needed in practice unless one lands long in runway lengths  at raw POH data with no margins 

One has to use judgment to stay in cases where "order does not matter" and stay away from cases where the exact order of gear and flaps matters: "A superior pilot uses his superior judgment to avoid situations which require the use of his superior skill", Commander of Apollo mission.

Edited September 4 by Ibra

[Jackk]

On 9/2/2025 at 4:48 AM, Pinecone said:

Hmm, T-37. T-38, A-10 are all Gear Up then Flaps up on go arounds.  SO flaps/gear/flaps is NOT industry wide.

If flaps and gear have similar drag, I am going to retract gear first as it is all drag.  Flaps are lift also.

If I had a flap system that I could set a flap setting, not holding a switch in timing, I might consider your method.

 I’d go off the book, but you’re right depends 

 

On Boeing and Cessnas, and many transport cat planes flaps gear flaps is common for full flap to a GA, but everything as you pointed out is different 

[Hank]

2 hours ago, Jackk said:

On Boeing and Cessnas, and many transport cat planes flaps gear flaps is common for full flap to a GA

These aircraft, especially the big jet transports, have significantly more flap deflection than our Mooneys. Don't some airliners use 50-55°? I always wondered how they stay aloft with so much deflection, although granted they're all fowler flaps.

[Jackk]

7 hours ago, Hank said:

These aircraft, especially the big jet transports, have significantly more flap deflection than our Mooneys. Don't some airliners use 50-55°? I always wondered how they stay aloft with so much deflection, although granted they're all fowler flaps.

The stuff I flew didn’t have that much, but tripple slotted with slats does change a wing lol 

[hubcap]

Late to the discussion, gear then flaps.

[Slick Nick]

The POH for my MSE calls for flaps to takeoff, then gear, then flaps up, so that’s the way I do it. If something goes wrong, and you don’t follow the procedure outlined by the manufacturer, your insurance company might have a leg to stand on if they wanted out of a claim. 

Not likely, but why open that door? I’ve practiced both methods and don’t notice a difference aside from the pitching moment, which is what I believe Mooney is trying to limit with their published procedure. 

[MikeOH]

29 minutes ago, Slick Nick said:

The POH for my MSE calls for flaps to takeoff, then gear, then flaps up, so that’s the way I do it. If something goes wrong, and you don’t follow the procedure outlined by the manufacturer, your insurance company might have a leg to stand on if they wanted out of a claim. 

Not likely, but why open that door? I’ve practiced both methods and don’t notice a difference aside from the pitching moment, which is what I believe Mooney is trying to limit with their published procedure. 

Insurance would be pretty useless if it didn't apply when you screwed up/broke a rule/didn't follow the POH.

[PT20J]

Sorry to circle back to the original topic, but I tried putting the flaps down to 15 deg (TO in my MSE) while level at 2000' with the autopilot set to ALT and the airspeed at 105 KIAS. The result was a change in pitch angle to about 3 deg nose down and no change in airspeed.

[Slick Nick]

43 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Insurance would be pretty useless if it didn't apply when you screwed up/broke a rule/didn't follow the POH.

I guess that's the airline guy in me talking. It's been drilled into me for decades that anything outside the "bible" puts your ass into the hot seat. 

[Jackk]

53 minutes ago, Slick Nick said:

I guess that's the airline guy in me talking. It's been drilled into me for decades that anything outside the "bible" puts your ass into the hot seat. 

 100%
 

POH/AFM trumps all 

 

*if your plane has one 

Edited Tuesday at 02:28 AM by Jackk

[Pinecone]

I could see setting flaps to take off with a flap preselect type control.  But with the up/hold/down type switch, that is a lot of time with one hand on the flap switch and looking down on the center console to see when you are close to the ground in a go around.

[Slick Nick]

5 hours ago, Pinecone said:

I could see setting flaps to take off with a flap preselect type control.  But with the up/hold/down type switch, that is a lot of time with one hand on the flap switch and looking down on the center console to see when you are close to the ground in a go around.

My ‘91 has preselect, it’s easy to just move it one click and then up to the gear handle.  Like I said above, I’ve tried both ways, and can’t detect any appreciable difference in climb performance. Flaps-gear-flaps, if that’s the method recommended by the manufacturer, should be what’s used. They’ve done the flight testing and assessed the performance under a number of conditions, and that’s good enough for me. 

[1980Mooney]

18 hours ago, Slick Nick said:

I guess that's the airline guy in me talking. It's been drilled into me for decades that anything outside the "bible" puts your ass into the hot seat. 

 

17 hours ago, Jackk said:

 100% POH/AFM trumps all 

 

7 hours ago, Pinecone said:

I could see setting flaps to take off with a flap preselect type control.  But with the up/hold/down type switch, that is a lot of time with one hand on the flap switch and looking down on the center console to see when you are close to the ground in a go around.

 

1 hour ago, Slick Nick said:

My ‘91 has preselect, it’s easy to just move it one click and then up to the gear handle.  Like I said above, I’ve tried both ways, and can’t detect any appreciable difference in climb performance. Flaps-gear-flaps, if that’s the method recommended by the manufacturer, should be what’s used. They’ve done the flight testing and assessed the performance under a number of conditions, and that’s good enough for me. 

The problem is that Mooney has not been consistent on what they published in the M20J POH's as the "method recommended by the manufacturer".

If you look at the M20J POH's in the Download section, you will find

• 1977 - 1984 POH says first "After establishing climb, Retract Flaps to 0 degrees" and then last "Retract Landing Gear"
• 1985 and later POH says after establishing climb, first Retract Flaps to "take-off position", then "Retract Landing Gear" and then last Retract flaps fully to 0 degrees.
• The change does not correspond to the standard installation of wing tips in 1981.
• The change does not correspond to the standard installation of "Take-off Flaps Preselect" switch in 1987.
• The change does not correspond to the standard GW increase to 2,900 lbs in 1991.

I would argue that the M20J did not change materially yet the Factory guidance for Balked Landing did.  So what should an owner do?

Edited Tuesday at 07:43 PM by 1980Mooney

[Slick Nick]

The “legal” answer, is do what it says in the POH for your model and year. It’s worth noting that in both cases, flaps are retracted before gear. 

[varlajo]

9 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

I would argue that the M20J did not change materially yet the Factory guidance for Balked Landing did.  So what should an owner do?

My 71E came with an Owner's Manual rather than POH, and the only chapters that are FAA-approved and regulatory in nature are Limitations and Emergency Procedures. Balked landing procedure is under Normal and therefore merely advisory. I guess I'm lucky. 

[Hank]

5 hours ago, varlajo said:

My 71E came with an Owner's Manual rather than POH . . . Balked landing procedure is under Normal and therefore merely advisory. I guess I'm lucky. 

Be glad, the Owners Manual for my 70C doesn't mention balked landings, go-arounds, etc., in any section. 

[1980Mooney]

12 hours ago, Slick Nick said:

The “legal” answer, is do what it says in the POH for your model and year. It’s worth noting that in both cases, flaps are retracted before gear. 

Yes I agree with you that is the "legal" answer.

Yet in both cases of POH's on Normal Takeoff, landing gear are retracted before flaps........

How is the initial Climb during a Normal Takeoff different from the initial Climb during a Balked Landing/Go-Around?! 

• Is the air around the plane, the lift of the wings or the physics of the plane any different between the 2 climbs?...No
• Is the recommended speed or rate of climb different?...No
• Is the attitude of the plane different?...No 

I don't understand the inconsistencies. Maybe more seasoned Mooney pilots can explain this.

From a safety perspective, inconsistencies increase the chance of making a mistake. 

And here is another safety perspective. Problems with our landing gear systems are common topics on MS. There are many topics about the landing gear not retracting due to switch, solenoid or air-switch failures. They are unexpected events which can be startling while a pilot is under pressure of takeoff.  If a pilot is going to be fiddle farting around/distracted during the initial climb cycling the gear switch, looking at the gear indicator light on the panel, looking down between the seats at the gear indicator window, or maybe pulling circuit breakers then they may not be fully focused on proper takeoff/climb.  The pilot might even pull the power back intentially to keep the speed down for fear of exceeding "legal" gear retraction speed.

These are times, especially at night or in marginal weather conditions, where there is a greater likelyhood of the pilot allowing the plane to lose speed or enter a banking turn that might become steep. I argue that it would be better to have flaps still deployed and out.  It reduces the stall speed and gives an extra margin of safety so they don't stall the plane.

Edited 15 hours ago by 1980Mooney

[Slick Nick]

 

3 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

Yes I agree with you that is the "legal" answer.

Yet in both cases of POH's on Normal Takeoff, landing gear are retracted before flaps........

Probably because you don’t take off with full flaps…

[Slick Nick]

You are perhaps either overthinking this, or not understanding what each step in the sequence is trying to achieve.  

The plane won’t climb very well with full flaps. They do create a little bit of lift, but that is outweighed by the amount of drag they induce. The gear does nothing but create drag when trying to climb. In Mooney’s testing, they’ve obviously determined that the primary objective is to get the wing cleaner first, and then bring up the gear, then flaps up once the drag is gone and you’re safely climbing away and accelerating. 

The  application of full power, flaps T/O, positive rate gear up, happens about as fast as you can read that. Probably why in a practical sense, the order doesn’t seem to matter. But there is a reason it’s specified to do it one way, and I’m inclined to follow it, even if that reason is as simple as the nose up pitch moment when retracting flaps. Not all planes have electric trim, and departure stalls are common. 

[Pinecone]

2 hours ago, Slick Nick said:

The  application of full power, flaps T/O, positive rate gear up, happens about as fast as you can read that. 

You must read very slowly, as it takes at least 3 - 5 seconds, head down, to go from full flaps to takeoff in my M20K.  It does NOT have the flap position pre-select.

It does take maybe a second to select gear up.