What is the effect of a gear up on the value after 5 years

[madreg98]

1988 M20J-201.  Gear up 5 years ago.  Engine repaired at Lycoming and new Prop.  All covered by insurance.  Body work completed by excellent shop and has been flown for 500 hours with no problems.  Am going to sell my share of partnership to other partners and need to know what deduction this could be in determining the value of the plane.  Who would be a good aircraft evaluator to discuss with?

[EricJ]

IMHO, it make no difference.    The assumption for pretty much all airplanes this old is that they all have damage of some kind, unless they were hangar queens, which definitely degrades the value more than damage.

If the repairs were done properly it should be a non-issue.

"Damage history" or "missing logs" causing devaluation are pretty much just tactics used by buyers to try to negotiate the price down.   Damage repaired properly (which is easy to do for a gear-up on a Mooney) or missing logs have pretty much zero impact on the utility of the aircraft.

[PT20J]

I agree with @EricJ. If it was repaired correctly, it should be good as new. I think people make way too much fuss over damage history. These airplanes are old and stuff happens.

Airplane sales are a negotiation between buyer and seller. Your case is special because you are selling a share to partners. If I were in your position, I would pay for one or more written appraisals and agree to sell your share for an amount based on the appraisals. Jimmy Garrison https://www.gmaxamericanaircraft.com/ would be a good place to start.

[PeteMc]

We were discussing a gear up plane once and the mechanic said basically what the others have said that if the plane did not come down hard to potentially really tweak something, and it was repaired properly, the should be 0 impact on the value of the plane.   But everyone seems to be able to get a few bucks off because of that one skid along the runway.

My plane had a prop strike and they were trying to sell it as X SMOH (few hundred hrs if I recall).  Going through the books it showed they tore down the engine, did pretty much everything needed for a overhaul, but they did not actually DO an overhaul.  So I got a big chuck off because of that faux pas.

[Fritz1]

Agree with statements above, properly repaired, zero deduction, more of a psychological issue, contact Jimmy Garrison at gmaxamerican, he will be able to recommend an appraiser, have the other guys agree with you on the appraiser, this will cut through the haze

[Fly Boomer]

22 hours ago, madreg98 said:

Am going to sell my share of partnership to other partners and need to know what deduction this could be in determining the value of the plane. 

Inflate asking price; then give back a discount.

[LANCECASPER]

On 6/18/2024 at 10:13 AM, madreg98 said:

1988 M20J-201.  Gear up 5 years ago.  Engine repaired at Lycoming and new Prop.  All covered by insurance.  Body work completed by excellent shop and has been flown for 500 hours with no problems.  Am going to sell my share of partnership to other partners and need to know what deduction this could be in determining the value of the plane.  Who would be a good aircraft evaluator to discuss with?

The example is always used that if two identical airplanes are sitting side by side, one has damage history and the other doesn't, the one without the damage will sell faster and closer to asking price. There's some truth to that but most 36 year old airplanes will have had a ding or two and after 500 hours since the repair it shouldn't matter much.

However, if you were the partner that landed gear up, and you're now asking your partners for a discount for damage history, that probably isn't in good form . . lol

[PT20J]

2 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

The example is always used that if two identical airplanes are sitting side by side

But, that never happens 

[Schllc]

The older the plane is, the less the damage history means with regard to value, assuming quality repairs of course. 
I agree with all those that say a gear up properly repaired is irrelevant, structurally, and safety wise. 
however, I can tell you unequivocally, that there are a large percentage of buyers of newer models that scratch the plane from the list, don’t care  about a discount, and won’t buy it at any price. There is also a significant percentage that expect a 20-30.% discount for that damage history. 
This is reality, and it means that they usually sell at a discount simply because the buyer for that market is so much smaller that sellers get antsy, and buyers get skeptical. 
I’m  not arguing the logic behind this, simply the market reality. 
I attribute some of it to ignorance, some to pickiness, and some to just not wanting to have to explain to the next buyer why it doesn’t matter.  
On a 50 year old airframe with 30 year old damage history, maybe no effect, but a 20 year old plane with three year old DH, it absolutely affects the price, and just as importantly, the time it takes to find a buyer which equals $$$….

[Fly Boomer]

I'd have to call BS on a 35 year old airplane with "no damage history".  The only way to never get a ding is leave it in the hangar, and even that isn't guaranteed.

[201Mooniac]

4 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

I'd have to call BS on a 35 year old airplane with "no damage history".  The only way to never get a ding is leave it in the hangar, and even that isn't guaranteed.

Well I guess I can't really confirm 100% what happened in the first 15 years of my airplane's life (though there is nothing suspicious in the logs or noticed on the airframe) but in the 29 years I've owned my airplane and 3000 hours I've flown it there is no damage which makes it a 44 year old airplane with no known damage.  Again, there could be some that I don't know about but I don't believe it is impossible.

[Fly Boomer]

2 minutes ago, 201Mooniac said:

Well I guess I can't really confirm 100% what happened in the first 15 years of my airplane's life (though there is nothing suspicious in the logs or noticed on the airframe) but in the 29 years I've owned my airplane and 3000 hours I've flown it there is no damage which makes it a 44 year old airplane with no known damage.  Again, there could be some that I don't know about but I don't believe it is impossible.

In any given cohort, there are always outliers, and it sounds like you have one, but just based on posts I read here on MooneySpace, there are a lot of dings of one sort or another -- some caused by others, and some self-inflicted.  But I'm suspicious when all the airplanes for sale now say "no known damage history".  Thirty or forty years ago, an advert with NDH meant more.  Now that I have aired out my suspicions, if I were buying, I would really only want to know if the damage could be detected by inspection.  If it was fixed properly, it should have been restored to at least the condition it was in before the damage.

[Schllc]

I wouldn’t think hangar rash, or a ding here or there was considered “damage history”.  
I always assumed damage history was an actual event, like a gear up, hitting a runway light etc. Do most people have the same impression of damage history?

I agree, it would be pretty unlikely that something like a plane could exists for 50 years with nothing, but not impossible. 
In my limited experience, people are also concerned that real damage history is not accurately represented in the logs. 
I looked at an acclaim in Canada a few years ago.  All the logs said was “inspected and repaired from hard landing”.  
By some stroke of luck I came across pictures (not from the broker or owner) and the gear had been pushed through the top of the wing on both sides, there was also tail damage that wasn’t in the logs. 
 

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, Schllc said:

there was also tail damage that wasn’t in the logs. 

I guess I'm skeptical by nature, but I have seen some log books that are only vaguely representative of the reality on the airplane.  I read them, but I think looking at the airplane can fill in some of the gaps.