Folding back seat

[JayMatt]

I would like to bring this topic back from the dead. The only post I can find on it are 10+ years old. 

Has anyone converted their back seat in a J model to where it folds down? Can you give me pictures of it if you have. Nothing I found in old post has pictures anymore. I'd like to do this mod for the sake of golf  

+1 if there is a way to make the bench seat a split seat where either side can fold down so I can fit three golfers and 3 bags. 

[KSMooniac]

The best and most difficult way is to scavenge later model back seats + hardware from a salvage or other source, and do a full transplant into your J.  That will get you two rear buckets that can be quickly removed, and the remaining seat back frame folds flat to make your cargo floor.  You can do one, or both.  Unfortunately, peak Mooney production was in the '77-'80 time frame, and the rear bucket seats did not appear until very late '81/early '82, so there are fewer airframes to pick over.  It is a huge increase in utility, and hull value IMO, and worthy of the effort and patience required to source the kit.

For years, I un-bolted the rear seat back and removed the butt cushion, and placed my own plywood filler cut to shape to make a flat cargo floor for my Pilots n Paws flights, OSH, etc.  It works fine, but obviously not a quick-change operation.  You can carefully fold the bench seat back down, but it won't lie flat and it will prevent the front seats from moving fully aft for ingress/egress.  

I'm not the average Mooney owner because I bought a salvage plane to scavenge upgrades for my '77.   I realize most won't do that, so you must check frequently with salvage sources to see if they get a later model in, and then you need to pounce.  Beegles in CO is pretty internet savvy with regular Facebook and ebay updates, so you might check them frequently.  I don't know if they maintain a wish-list of customers but it couldn't hurt to ask.  Fortunately/unfortunately, we as a pilot population continue to crash Mooneys and send them to the salvage yards, so eventually there will be inventory.  You can recover the seats to suit your current interior, so don't get hung up on what you can buy...the frames and mechanisms are the hard part!  Even better, if you can buy all 4 seats from a later Mooney, you might get the vertically-adjustable fronts, which is another comfort/utility/hull value increase compared to the simple seats that were stock in '77 and a couple years later.

[JayMatt]

@KSMooniac are you saying that finding all the seats out of a 82 or newer would potentially solve a lot of these issues? they have bucket seats in the back?  

[KSMooniac]

Yes, that is the best way to accomplish what you're asking, IMO.  If your plane suits you well and as far as you can tell will be a keeper/forever plane, then it is a no-brainer IMO.  You might get lucky and find a full seat "kit" in a salvage yard quickly, or it might take a year or two or more.  I casually searched for years before buying an entire plane, but again, I'm weird that way.  I saw one ad in the old MAPA Pilot Log between 2007 and 2013 for a rear seat kit with ratty seat covers for $2500 back then, just to give you an idea of cost and scarcity.

There are brackets riveted in to the seat pan under to create hinge lines for the pivoting rear seat back frames, as well as holding the mechanism to control the tilt angle of the seat backs.  You'll need the plastic trim pieces too, but I think they can be sourced new from Vantage Plane Plastics.  There are also different versions of the rear seats...the first generation had tall seat backs with integrated head rests, that started around S/N 24-1219 if my memory is correct for the J's.  I bought 12-1221 as salvage and it had them.  Sometime later in the production run, the seat backs got smaller and separate removable headrests were used.  My original plan was to modify those tall seats by cutting out a portion of the fiberglass seat back frame and splicing it back together to make it lower.  I then bought all four salvage seats from a 1990 Bravo M20M and it has the lower seat backs + headrests, and the fully articulating front seats, so I did not use my first set.  This past summer I finally had all 4 rebuilt with new foam and covers to my specs, and I love them.  Unfortunately the Bravo set did not come with all of the hardware to accomplish the transplant, so I've been using some of the parts from my J salvage as well.  Pretty soon I'll have a leftover partial kit that I plan to sell.  It will be a project, though, but surely can be completed with some effort.  You might be the right buyer.   I also have the front seat frames, which might be an upgrade for you if your seats have the 3 position cam to set the back angle.  These have a crank instead.  

Others have done this over the years too.  I think it is a straight-forward improvement as you're taking certified Mooney parts and installing them into your Mooney, so the approval basis is trivial and can be called a minor mod.  You'll need to update the weight & balance, but that is a straightforward task for an IA.  

I'll try to remember to take some pics this weekend when I'm working on mine and share on this thread.

[0TreeLemur]

8 hours ago, JayMatt said:

seats out of a 82 or newer

My '83J has fold down rear seats.

[PT20J]

According to this chart I got somewhere the split rear seats were introduced in the M20J in 1982.

201hist.pdf

[amillet]

I’ve seen this chart before. It doesn’t include the new “Ovation Style “ interior on the 1996-1998 Js.

[amillet]

I just sent an email to Mark Napier

It will be interesting to see if the old email address is still active 

[KSMooniac]

12 hours ago, PT20J said:

According to this chart I got somewhere the split rear seats were introduced in the M20J in 1982.

201hist.pdf 59.48 kB · 5 downloads

Might officially be '82, but as usual, there is some fuzziness with Mooney model years and feature cutovers.  My salvage J is a 1981, SN 24-1221, but it had the split rear seats.  I believe it was a very late production that year, but it was registered as 81.  From that chart, it was the 7th unit with those seats.  If I look up 1214 (Aircraft Data N1141K, 1981 Mooney M20J 201 C/N 24-1214 (airport-data.com)) I see it is also an 81 and first one to have the split seats.

None of this really matters of course, but just serves to illustrate the feature cutovers are always a little fuzzy!

[201Mooniac]

2 hours ago, amillet said:

I just sent an email to Mark Napier

It will be interesting to see if the old email address is still active 

Mark used to be very active on the old Mooney mailing list.  I haven't spoken to him in more than 20 years probably.  I hope he is still flying a Mooney.

[PT20J]

1 hour ago, KSMooniac said:

Might officially be '82, but as usual, there is some fuzziness with Mooney model years and feature cutovers.  My salvage J is a 1981, SN 24-1221, but it had the split rear seats.  I believe it was a very late production that year, but it was registered as 81.  From that chart, it was the 7th unit with those seats.  If I look up 1214 (Aircraft Data N1141K, 1981 Mooney M20J 201 C/N 24-1214 (airport-data.com)) I see it is also an 81 and first one to have the split seats.

None of this really matters of course, but just serves to illustrate the feature cutovers are always a little fuzzy!

I have a 1994 M20J that has the 50th anniversary tail decal, and seat embroidery. Those should have been on the 1993s 

[Red Leader]

Do the rear seats in newer models fit older ones? I have a "K" but if I find a set from an "M" or an "R", would they fit without alteration? If not, what needs to be changed to get them to fit correctly? What about paperwork - isn't there something required for a modification of this type?

[amillet]

On 10/12/2023 at 9:42 AM, 201Mooniac said:

Mark used to be very active on the old Mooney mailing list.  I haven't spoken to him in more than 20 years probably.  I hope he is still flying a Mooney.

Mark replied!

 

[201Mooniac]

Wow, that's amazing, I'll have to reach out to him.

[Yetti]

My 75 F model has the reclining split rear seats that remove with one pin pull.   They go back in with 2 hours of sweating and bad words.    I never figured out how to get the split pin out of the release lever so I just taped it off and painted the panel in the plane.

[M20F-1968]

On 10/13/2023 at 8:47 AM, Red Leader said:

Do the rear seats in newer models fit older ones? I have a "K" but if I find a set from an "M" or an "R", would they fit without alteration? If not, what needs to be changed to get them to fit correctly? What about paperwork - isn't there something required for a modification of this type?

The seats from other models will fit.  I rebuilt a 1968 M20 F with many Ovation parts including all 4 seats and full interior.  Take a look at the pictures in my profile.  It does take time however.

John Breda