Starter not getting power.

[PilotX]

Sitting in a Lyft on the hour ride from home. Plane wouldn’t start after a short flight.
 

No noise up front, batteries fully charged, power to everything as far as I can tell. Engine shop owner came out and after I removed the cowling, he tested the starter and found no power to it.

 

Hope the heat hasn’t fried some wires. Some blow by of the EGT probes. Electric gremlins are the worst. Left her with Harris at GXY and they will take a look later this week. ~200 hours on the engine. I assume they replaced the starter at install, don’t know it was a gear up in 2019 and Factory Reman. Fingers crossed. 
 

No KOSH for me. Was considering it. 

[LANCECASPER]

How did they test that there's no power to the starter?

First guess is the simplest - bad starter even if it is rebuilt - I bet when the starter cools it starts

[kortopates]

check starter relay and if the Starter annunciator light is illuminating when you push in the ignition switch to start

[PilotX]

I have never seen starter power illuminated. I don’t think it was wired that way since I have owned it. 

[carusoam]

Expect the starter relay has decided to call it quits…

Hot weather and relays don’T get along very well…

Sometimes a tap on the relay loosens them up… enough to get you home….

Somebody else reported the same challenge a few weeks ago.

The important thing to report… did you hear the thunk of the relay closing?

If you hear the thunk, the electricity usually gets delivered to the starter….

No thunk…. The relay is mis-behaving….

You might also get buzzing with a faulty relay…

PP thoughts only…

Best regards,

-a-

[kortopates]

I have never seen starter power illuminated. I don’t think it was wired that way since I have owned it. 

burnt out bulb - CM7327


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[carusoam]

Does your bird have a test button for the annunciator panel?

Push the test button, all the bulbs should light. Some come on faster than others…

 

-a-

[kortopates]

Does your bird have a test button for the annunciator panel?
Push the test button, all the bulbs should light. Some come on faster than others…

 
-a-

Models may vary on this, but the Starter light is one of the bulbs that does not illuminate with the test button. Try it on you Ovation.

it’s the low fuel circuit that takes 3-5 sec to illuminate.


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[PilotX]

Went through the logs and it says a new Skytec was installed with the reman engine. They said they would get to it later this week so I will follow up with a phone call tomorrow as I consider Thursday later than Wednesday and I left it there Tuesday.

I have the test button but some bulbs are out (LORAN) and I don't look there during start I am looking forward.

[PilotX]

Got the call today. Started up just fine. They will turn the key tomorrow and if it turns out ok then I will try and get her back. A heat issue? The shop said he wiggled things trying to recreate the issue. If the first person to look thought it wasn't getting power...electrical gremlins are the best.

[LANCECASPER]

2 hours ago, PilotX said:

Got the call today. Started up just fine. They will turn the key tomorrow and if it turns out ok then I will try and get her back. A heat issue? The shop said he wiggled things trying to recreate the issue. If the first person to look thought it wasn't getting power...electrical gremlins are the best.

SkyTecs turn it fast, but for a number of years they had a high failure rate. If you end up replacing it go with the 149-NLEC (EC stands for Extended Crank) It's a heavier duty starter.

[carusoam]

See what starter relay it has…

I think there was a discussion regarding the Sky-tec starter relays…

Best regards,

-a-

[PilotX]

Flew today. Landed let it set for ~15-20 to see if heat would do anything. Nope, cranked right up. My IA suggested that he has only replaced 2 solenoids in 20 years and that it might be the smaller lightweight starter, even though it is new ~200 hours in 3 years. Debating changing the starter as @LANCECASPER suggested. 

[LANCECASPER]

Just now, PilotX said:

Flew today. Landed let it set for ~15-20 to see if heat would do anything. Nope, cranked right up. My IA suggested that he has only replaced 2 solenoids in 20 years and that it might be the smaller lightweight starter, even though it is new ~200 hours in 3 years. Debating changing the starter as @LANCECASPER suggested. 

It's a lot cheaper to get changed at your home field than getting stranded somewhere, but you already know that. Call SkyTec, they used to be really good about making it right when someone had a problem.

[kortopates]

1 hour ago, PilotX said:

Flew today. Landed let it set for ~15-20 to see if heat would do anything. Nope, cranked right up. My IA suggested that he has only replaced 2 solenoids in 20 years and that it might be the smaller lightweight starter, even though it is new ~200 hours in 3 years. Debating changing the starter as @LANCECASPER suggested. 

It really doesn't sound like a starter issue but more likely an intermittent relay. They do go out.

Get that starter bulb replaced so you have a better idea if it happens again. Per your POH it is required for flight. But the time to really look at it is after you start up, verify the starter isn't getting power because if it is you only have a second or two to turn off the power with the Master before the starter is toast. But if it's not turning over you can use the light to tell if its getting power.

[PilotX]

10 hours ago, kortopates said:

Get that starter bulb replaced so you have a better idea if it happens again. Per your POH it is required for flight. But the time to really look at it is after you start up, verify the starter isn't getting power because if it is you only have a second or two to turn off the power with the Master before the starter is toast. But if it's not turning over you can use the light to tell if its getting power.

Starter bulb works, I just never looked at it because I am always looking forward when I start.

Sky-Tec responded and suggest that heat is a known issue with my model and to send it back under warranty: "the solenoid on the starter is malfunctioning. That would explain the hot start issue and is a problem we know about. " I may just have them pull it off and send it in during annual next week but even they suggested the upgraded model so I don't know that having them look at it helps. I'll chat with my IA and see what he thinks. Thanks MS'ers.

[carusoam]

See if a search provides more similar experience for the light weight sky-tec starter used on IO550s…

@Amelia’s bird may have had a similar experience… could have been the prior owner… 

Sky-tec makes a good starter…. And light weight is always attractive…

Something about the combination may be problematic…

 

Fuzzy PP memories only…

Best regards,

-a-

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, PilotX said:

Starter bulb works, I just never looked at it because I am always looking forward when I start.

Sky-Tec responded and suggest that heat is a known issue with my model and to send it back under warranty: "the solenoid on the starter is malfunctioning. That would explain the hot start issue and is a problem we know about. " I may just have them pull it off and send it in during annual next week but even they suggested the upgraded model so I don't know that having them look at it helps. I'll chat with my IA and see what he thinks. Thanks MS'ers.

When you send it in and they look at it they'll probably make you a deal on the Extended Cranking model. The base model is probably ok for the 4 cylinder Lycomings, but not the 540 6 cylinder for sure.

[tls pilot]

On 7/23/2022 at 9:57 AM, PilotX said:

Starter bulb works, I just never looked at it because I am always looking forward when I start.

Sky-Tec responded and suggest that heat is a known issue with my model and to send it back under warranty: "the solenoid on the starter is malfunctioning. That would explain the hot start issue and is a problem we know about. " I may just have them pull it off and send it in during annual next week but even they suggested the upgraded model so I don't know that having them look at it helps. I'll chat with my IA and see what he thinks. Thanks MS'ers.

see

 

[M20F]

In addition to many things I carry a rubber mallet and a Skytec starter.  The mallet generally fixes it enough to get home, if not it is literally the easiest thing to swap out on my F.  

[LANCECASPER]

2 hours ago, M20F said:

In addition to many things I carry a rubber mallet and a Skytec starter.  The mallet generally fixes it enough to get home, if not it is literally the easiest thing to swap out on my F.  

And the mallet trick usually works once or twice before it doesn't work anymore. But when it works it's a beautiful thing if the alternative is being stranded somewhere.

It is one of those things though that you really hope that no one is watching when you do it. (You may be a redneck if . . . )

[Shadrach]

On 7/20/2022 at 8:09 PM, PilotX said:

Got the call today. Started up just fine. They will turn the key tomorrow and if it turns out ok then I will try and get her back. A heat issue? The shop said he wiggled things trying to recreate the issue. If the first person to look thought it wasn't getting power...electrical gremlins are the best.

Paul has already pointed out the most likely culprit. If the starter was not getting power, then it’s not the problem. With age and multiple cycles, relays wear and will intermittently fail to close the circuit. Heat soak can change tolerances just enough to go from marginal contact to no contact. I am surprised the engine shop owner did not test the circuit Al the way back to the firewall. Not much extra work at that point. 

[LANCECASPER]

59 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Paul has already pointed out the most likely culprit. If the starter was not getting power, then it’s not the problem. With age and multiple cycles, relays wear and will intermittently fail to close the circuit. Heat soak can change tolerances just enough to go from marginal contact to no contact. I am surprised the engine shop owner did not test the circuit Al the way back to the firewall. Not much extra work at that point. 

This is why my first question was "How did they test that there's no power to the starter?". If some kid at the FBO on the weekend tested to see if if the starter had power, did he know enough to realize that it comes through a relay? Much higher chance it's the starter than the relay. In 37 years of flying I've had a few starters go bad, never replaced a starter relay. On the three Bravos when I bought them they all had the lightest weight Skytec on them, all three went bad. After changing them out with something heavier duty the problems went away. My experience is that the lifespan of that lightest weight Skytec on a TIO-540-AF1B is about 200-300 hours, especially if you're operating in very hot climate.

[kortopates]

5 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

This is why my first question was "How did they test that there's no power to the starter?". If some kid at the FBO on the weekend tested to see if if the starter had power, did he know enough to realize that it comes through a relay? Much higher chance it's the starter than the relay. In 37 years of flying I've had a few starters go bad, never replaced a starter relay. On the three Bravos when I bought them they all had the lightest weight Skytec on them, all three went bad. After changing them out with something heavier duty the problems went away. My experience is that the lifespan of that lightest weight Skytec on a TIO-540-AF1B is about 200-300 hours, especially if you're operating in very hot climate.

I am going to beg to differ a bit, but if we qualify that to light weight starters then you are so right. But the older heavier starters like the TCM energizers are super reliable and relays very much do fail. I'll also add a number of starters have been replaced due to a failing relay. For example, once a relay starts sticking, it can easily stick "on"; promptly burning out the starter in a few seconds when it goes unnoticed. If the cause isn't recognized a new starter may soon suffer the same consequence. 

[David Lloyd]

I have had a couple Skytech starter solenoids fail intermittently.  Not the relay on the firewall, the one on the starter that levers the gear into position and engages a set of contacts to energize the motor. Yes, that set of contacts is redundant to what Mooney already had.  Some other airplanes use a hot wire from the master relay to the Skytech—see their website for a diagram and explanation. Starter relay is the same as used on a Ford F-350 for about $50, not that anyone here would be so bold.