Panel Upgrade thoughts

[carusoam]

The problem with non-WAAS….

Is simple…

Waas supplies the accuracy to descend like following an ILS….

Non-WAAS GPSi don’t have that capability…

Its great to have an approach rated GPS… 90s technology…. Great for horizontal navigation…

But sooner or later you will want the capabilities of all the WAAS approaches….

Essentially the FAA is rolling out WAAS approaches and doing away with the older technologies…

If in the learning stage of IFR…

It would be best to have a WAAS GPS feeding a simple display…. Than having a non-WAAS GPS feeding a beautiful glass panel…

How are you going to get to the ground when you are above a really low cloud layer?

I only have one ILS receiver… with a non-WAAS GPS… it is a crummy limitation….

If short on dough… consider calling alan, and swap a pre-flown WAAS receiver for the non-WAAS receiver…

PP thoughts to consider…

Best regards,

-a-

 

[cwaters]

13 hours ago, carusoam said:

The problem with non-WAAS….

Is simple…

Waas supplies the accuracy to descend like following an ILS….

Non-WAAS GPSi don’t have that capability…

Its great to have an approach rated GPS… 90s technology…. Great for horizontal navigation…

But sooner or later you will want the capabilities of all the WAAS approaches….

Essentially the FAA is rolling out WAAS approaches and doing away with the older technologies…

If in the learning stage of IFR…

It would be best to have a WAAS GPS feeding a simple display…. Than having a non-WAAS GPS feeding a beautiful glass panel…

How are you going to get to the ground when you are above a really low cloud layer?

I only have one ILS receiver… with a non-WAAS GPS… it is a crummy limitation….

If short on dough… consider calling alan, and swap a pre-flown WAAS receiver for the non-WAAS receiver…

PP thoughts to consider…

Best regards,

-a-

 

I completely understand this am agree on all points, my questions with the dynon system were if it was a need for the system to operate or a want for better capabilities 

 

I could do a waas gps and the dynon system or the G5’s and gfc 500 ap so one way gets me a waas gps and glass panel with synthetic vision and the other gets me a AP coupled to non waas gps for long xc IFR flying 

[TheAv8r]

2 hours ago, cwaters said:

I completely understand this am agree on all points, my questions with the dynon system were if it was a need for the system to operate or a want for better capabilities 

 

I could do a waas gps and the dynon system or the G5’s and gfc 500 ap so one way gets me a waas gps and glass panel with synthetic vision and the other gets me a AP coupled to non waas gps for long xc IFR flying 

I'm sure you're tired of listening to me by now, but as we've pointed out, a WAAS upgrade is likely less than $4k all-in. May I suggest, instead of doing one or the other, maybe waiting another month or two for your project to accumulate that $4k so you can do all of the above? 

[carusoam]

Cliffy  is just getting started putting a Dynon in his plane….

When it comes to knowing fine details like these….

And why he chose one direction or the other…

Find his thread…

He clearly has no intent to fly in the clouds anymore….  
 

He can probably point you in the right direction for what you are asking…

Best regards,

-a-

[cliffy]

Let's put a different perspective on this-  WAAS  vs Non-WAAS

The only difference is landing minimums allowed.

What is the mission going to be in the end ?

If you are not IFR rated now  and want to do it in your own airplane you can still get your ticket without a WAAS navigator. You'll just be doing GPS NON precision approaches and still have the ability of ILS precision approaches with the non WAAS 430.. Granted not as many as LPVs but still useful. 

Secondly- what is the mission after the ticket? General fun flying ? If so how many times are you going to actually WANT to go into 200/  1/2 weather  vs 700' OVC  1 mile vis?  You'll need to set your own Personal Minimums and as a new IFR rated pilot higher personal  minimums for the first year or 2 are highly recommended. 

How comfortable are you flying over weather that is right down on the ground where you will need LPV capability? Do you really want to fly over low overcast conditions in a S/E airplane? Your choice, only you can make that evaluation. 

It all comes down to how often are you really going to need to do LPV approaches in the kind of flying you are going to do?

WAAS is nice to have but are YOU really going to use its capability?

I doubt that many owners here who fly less than 100 hrs per year actually do more than 2 or 3 below 600/1 approaches a year.  

My choice was after almost 60 years in all kinds of weather all over the world as a (now) private pilot in reality, my IFR flying didn't keep me sharp enough even at 100-125 hrs a year to feel competent IFR anymore. Hence my decision to go VFR only in my new Dynon panel. I could easily just add a 430 WAAS for full IFR but I wouldn't use it enough to stay competent or justify the cost. 

Again only you can determine if you will use WAAS enough to justify the expense?

To those who may disagree- please post your annual flying time and how many IMC approaches you did last year that were ACTUALLY below non-precision ceilings  Lets take a poll and see just how much everyone ACTUALLY uses the WAAS capability. Who knows how to post a poll? I don't

 

[hais]

1 hour ago, cliffy said:

Let's put a different perspective on this-  WAAS  vs Non-WAAS

The only difference is landing minimums allowed.

What is the mission going to be in the end ?

If you are not IFR rated now  and want to do it in your own airplane you can still get your ticket without a WAAS navigator. You'll just be doing GPS NON precision approaches and still have the ability of ILS precision approaches with the non WAAS 430.. Granted not as many as LPVs but still useful. 

Secondly- what is the mission after the ticket? General fun flying ? If so how many times are you going to actually WANT to go into 200/  1/2 weather  vs 700' OVC  1 mile vis?  You'll need to set your own Personal Minimums and as a new IFR rated pilot higher personal  minimums for the first year or 2 are highly recommended. 

How comfortable are you flying over weather that is right down on the ground where you will need LPV capability? Do you really want to fly over low overcast conditions in a S/E airplane? Your choice, only you can make that evaluation. 

It all comes down to how often are you really going to need to do LPV approaches in the kind of flying you are going to do?

WAAS is nice to have but are YOU really going to use its capability?

I doubt that many owners here who fly less than 100 hrs per year actually do more than 2 or 3 below 600/1 approaches a year.  

My choice was after almost 60 years in all kinds of weather all over the world as a (now) private pilot in reality, my IFR flying didn't keep me sharp enough even at 100-125 hrs a year to feel competent IFR anymore. Hence my decision to go VFR only in my new Dynon panel. I could easily just add a 430 WAAS for full IFR but I wouldn't use it enough to stay competent or justify the cost. 

Again only you can determine if you will use WAAS enough to justify the expense?

To those who may disagree- please post your annual flying time and how many IMC approaches you did last year that were ACTUALLY below non-precision ceilings  Lets take a poll and see just how much everyone ACTUALLY uses the WAAS capability. Who knows how to post a poll? I don't

 

My thinking is safety net.

WAAS is like that extra 1 hour of fuel. I plan not to need it, but I suspect one day I’ll screw up and ending up needing it.

[cwaters]

6 hours ago, cliffy said:

Let's put a different perspective on this-  WAAS  vs Non-WAAS

The only difference is landing minimums allowed.

What is the mission going to be in the end ?

If you are not IFR rated now  and want to do it in your own airplane you can still get your ticket without a WAAS navigator. You'll just be doing GPS NON precision approaches and still have the ability of ILS precision approaches with the non WAAS 430.. Granted not as many as LPVs but still useful. 

Secondly- what is the mission after the ticket? General fun flying ? If so how many times are you going to actually WANT to go into 200/  1/2 weather  vs 700' OVC  1 mile vis?  You'll need to set your own Personal Minimums and as a new IFR rated pilot higher personal  minimums for the first year or 2 are highly recommended. 

How comfortable are you flying over weather that is right down on the ground where you will need LPV capability? Do you really want to fly over low overcast conditions in a S/E airplane? Your choice, only you can make that evaluation. 

It all comes down to how often are you really going to need to do LPV approaches in the kind of flying you are going to do?

WAAS is nice to have but are YOU really going to use its capability?

I doubt that many owners here who fly less than 100 hrs per year actually do more than 2 or 3 below 600/1 approaches a year.  

My choice was after almost 60 years in all kinds of weather all over the world as a (now) private pilot in reality, my IFR flying didn't keep me sharp enough even at 100-125 hrs a year to feel competent IFR anymore. Hence my decision to go VFR only in my new Dynon panel. I could easily just add a 430 WAAS for full IFR but I wouldn't use it enough to stay competent or justify the cost. 

Again only you can determine if you will use WAAS enough to justify the expense?

To those who may disagree- please post your annual flying time and how many IMC approaches you did last year that were ACTUALLY below non-precision ceilings  Lets take a poll and see just how much everyone ACTUALLY uses the WAAS capability. Who knows how to post a poll? I don't

 

This is a great perspective and the General way I approach this waas bs non waas decision, I have my IFR ticket and fly about 120 hrs a year in my plane, most is xc about 400-500 nm 

i have had my ticket for several months now and shot a fair number of approaches but most of those are with a Saftey pilot who is also IFR and we are maintaining currency and proficiency 

not sure It’s in my personal minimums to lpv minimums right now. But also know this is not my forever plane and non waas is dying fast and if not already will soon be a detractor 

 

ifr is still a must if not approches fthen for enroute 

[cwaters]

16 hours ago, jacenbourne said:

I'm sure you're tired of listening to me by now, but as we've pointed out, a WAAS upgrade is likely less than $4k all-in. May I suggest, instead of doing one or the other, maybe waiting another month or two for your project to accumulate that $4k so you can do all of the above? 

Can you point me to a gps nav comm system that is 4K waas? Anything in that price is likely just gps, which is fine but limits my options for cleaning up the panel any 

 

also the dynon system didn’t have a Mooney approved ap yet so to get it all I’d have to go garmin all the way and then I’m looking closer to 50k I think for full glass waas gps and gfc500 not 30-35k 

[carusoam]

Oops…. My bad.

I mixed Cliffy’s name with Rich… 

 

if I understand this properly…

The outstanding question is…

 

can an old G430 (non-waas) be used to drive the Dynon display?

 

Because that is what the OP has… today…

-a-

[cliffy]

2 hours ago, carusoam said:

Oops…. My bad.

I mixed Cliffy’s name with Rich… 

 

if I understand this properly…

The outstanding question is…

 

can an old G430 (non-waas) be used to drive the Dynon display?

 

Because that is what the OP has… today…

-a-

With the 429 adaptor box

[carusoam]

@cwaters

See if I still have things going the right way….

Yes…

The G430 non-waas can be used as a great starter step to drive the Dynon system…

See Cliffy’s note above… 

 

For fun…. We can invite @PilotFun101 to the conversation… Chris has the Dynon system and has done many YouTube videos showing how he has used it….

 

Best regards,

-a-

[cwaters]

8 hours ago, carusoam said:

@cwaters

See if I still have things going the right way….

Yes…

The G430 non-waas can be used as a great starter step to drive the Dynon system…

See Cliffy’s note above… 

 

For fun…. We can invite @PilotFun101 to the conversation… Chris has the Dynon system and has done many YouTube videos showing how he has used it….

 

Best regards,

-a-

yes that is the base question and if going the dynon route would be better than the g5 and gfc route, Its a difficults decision tree for me 

[carusoam]

On 1/16/2022 at 12:51 AM, cwaters said:

yes that is the base question and if going the dynon route would be better than the g5 and gfc route, Its a difficults decision tree for me 

there are two/several routes to follow…

Some people really like to read and understand what each avionics box has to offer…. Down to number and type of plugs and what protocol is used for communication between them…

Other prefer simplicity of integration….

Some think big G is the best way to go…. For them…

When many know that various boxes are made by different leaders in the industry…

Some simply want all the technology, and don’t want to pay for the added simplicity of a single source…

Sadly, for the consumer… Big G doesn’t want to integrate with all of the other players…

Dynon is coming on strong… but, hasn’t delivered the AP yet… that is a pretty big outstanding nut that needs to be cracked….

 

None are perfect…. BK hasn’t been near perfect for a very long time….

Just when you think paying the most will make things easier… big G throws a curve ball into the dirt…bouncing past the catcher and into the third row… 

Every player has had a bad day… how they recover is what is important…

 

Dynon is pretty good about hitting their delivery expectations… unfortunately, that is still months away…

There haven’t been many complaints about the systems that are in the field… just not that many systems installed yet…

Best regards,

-a-

[TheAv8r]

On 1/15/2022 at 7:45 AM, cwaters said:

Can you point me to a gps nav comm system that is 4K waas? Anything in that price is likely just gps, which is fine but limits my options for cleaning up the panel any 

Sell your 430 non-WAAS and buy a 430 WAAS. Your 430 non-W will go for around $4-5k if it is in good condition. I've been seeing 430W's sell for about $7k on the market right now. That's under $4k to get WAAS, could be as cheap as $2k. 

[LANCECASPER]

On 1/15/2022 at 12:47 AM, cliffy said:

Let's put a different perspective on this-  WAAS  vs Non-WAAS

The only difference is landing minimums allowed.

And vertical guidance

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, jacenbourne said:

Sell your 430 non-WAAS and buy a 430 WAAS. Your 430 non-W will go for around $4-5k if it is in good condition. I've been seeing 430W's sell for about $7k on the market right now. That's under $4k to get WAAS, could be as cheap as $2k. 

The difference is still about the same, but as these things get older the prices change. 430W sell for between $4k and $5 now and Non-waas for between $2k and 2.5K.

[toto]

I’m happy that the used avionics market is still so strong, but I seriously can’t imagine myself spending anywhere near 5 grand on a 20-year-old radio.

If I wanted a WAAS capable navigator and had a 5 AMU budget, I’d probably get one of the new slimline nav-only GPS 175 units from Garmin (as mentioned several times above). These are under 5k new from online retailers. With a little more money, you could get the same unit with com (GNC 355). 

Starting a new panel today with a 20-year-old navigator just seems like it’s not going to end well. The GNS units are fantastic, and buying a brand-new one today for 4k might be a bargain. But buying a used one that has been flown for 20 years and saves only a few hundred bucks over a 2022 navigator seems like it will end up costing money in the long run. 
 

 

[toto]

Note sure whether this has already been mentioned, but Aviation Consumer had a nice article on budget IFR panels in a relatively recent issue. I think all of the products here are still relevant. 
 

https://www.aviationconsumer.com/avionics/ifr-on-a-budget-the-15k-upgrade/

[cliffy]

49 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

And vertical guidance

Hence the lower minimums    Without the vertical you don't get the lower!

With WAAS you get lower mins

Does anyone still do VOR approaches? Does anyone do LOC approaches? 

God forbid our neighbors to the north do something called NDBs

Vertical is nice but it ain't the  only way to get in safely

How many years did we only have LF Radio Range approaches (I've done them) and we got in safely?

Sure not to the lower CAT I mins but still operational. 

And again I ask "How many times a year will the "average" IFR rated PP actually use need the WAAS capability as opposed to 600- 1 non-precision mins to justify the expense IF budget is a consideration and they already have a non WAAS navigator? Especially considering that the NON WAAS unit has ILS capability? Not saying that it is not nice to have but it not mandatory for most IR PPs flying the way most PPs fly. 

It all comes down to how bad of weather one is willing to go into regularly in a single engine airplane.

It is in the end a personal choice  There is no right or wrong answer. Each pilot makes his own decision. 

For me after 60 years of doing it professionally down to CAT III,  I have raised my personal minimums to day VFR in single engine airplanes.

As one goes further down the road the element of risk seems to narrow a bit more with each passing year

The old saying- "There are no old bold pilots" becomes a mantra after decades of seeing what can happen, pushing the envelope for decades  and losing many friends to similar circumstances over the years

Caution becomes the order of the day

All the training in the world can't replace experience. Until you actually stick your nose into it and "experience" the bad you don't have any idea where the boundaries are. Once you find the boundaries, you are less willing to go there.

One can also benefit by listening to those who have gone before.

JMO. 

[LANCECASPER]

You don't need to lower your personal minimums to get vertical guidance. You just need WAAS to get vertical guidance down to your personal minimums.

As you already know, vertical guidance on a GPS approach is like adding the glideslope to a localizer approach, only without the needles swinging all over the place. Thirty years ago if you were looking at an airplane that had a vor receiver but no glideslope you'd be wondering, "Where else did they skimp on this airplane?". In real dollars a glideslope was probably a lot more expensive 30 years ago than the difference we're talking here today.

If you're already doing work to the panel in 2022 and not adding WAAS you're missing a huge benefit. You'll end up discounting the airplane when you sell it if it doesn't have WAAS, so in the end you pay for it, but never got to enjoy it while you owned it.

[cwaters]

Got a quote from a local shop for a single 10" Dynon bases system with IFR connectivity, GNS 355 (for the WAAS and comm) and a new panel made for about 30AMU 

I would keep the 430non-WAAS as the back up gps/comm and it would be the only nav radio then as I pull the 155 out. I would be rolling the dice on the AP being approved (but would need some time for the budget to recover for that upgrade too) keep the main CDI and airspeed indicator (redundancy) and the EDM 900 (I like it and then engine information is always displayed and gives me more room on the Dynon display) 

 

Thoughts?

 

I know there will be some that say I should go the big G route for the AP and some saying just put in the 650 but unless you want to also donate to the upgrade fund I have to stay in the budget and this route seems to keep me there and provide the largest step in the direction I'd like to move in (ultimate goal is fully coupled AP and glass, not sure if it will happen in this plane, so resale value is also taken into account somewhat) 

[TheAv8r]

38 minutes ago, cwaters said:

Got a quote from a local shop for a single 10" Dynon bases system with IFR connectivity, GNS 355 (for the WAAS and comm) and a new panel made for about 30AMU 

I would keep the 430non-WAAS as the back up gps/comm and it would be the only nav radio then as I pull the 155 out. I would be rolling the dice on the AP being approved (but would need some time for the budget to recover for that upgrade too) keep the main CDI and airspeed indicator (redundancy) and the EDM 900 (I like it and then engine information is always displayed and gives me more room on the Dynon display) 

 

Thoughts?

For your mission, this seems like a good way to go. You'll get WAAS, a modern-equivalent GPS, still have a backup GPS and Comm, and a modern glass display. It'll greatly modernize the panel. You can leave room for the AP in your new panel so you know where to put it when you do have the budget and approval for it. I think you'll thank yourself in the future for going this route

[cliffy]

You will have airspeed backup in the required EFIS D-10A stand by indicator. Required per the STC so the old ASI can actually go bye bye  Your shop did include the EFIS D-10A in the estimate - correct? 

Make sure you read the actual STC in the Dynon Install Manual and not just the advertising. 

2.1 Required Equipment The SkyView HDX System STC SA02594SE requires that the following equipment be installed: • HDX1100 or HDX800 • EFIS-D10A Standby Display • SV-ADAHRS-200 ADAHRS • SV-OAT-340 Outside Air Temperature sensor • SV-GPS-2020 GPS Antenna/Receiver • SV-MAG-236 Remote Magnetometer • SV-BAT-320 Backup Battery

You do not need the backup battery for the D-10 as it is not required by the STC Only if you want it. A cost and downstream maintenance item Think of the failure modes you're likely to see. 

The SV-GPS-2020 antenna/receiver is only for the Dynon screen and is not IFR certified You will need to install another GPS WAAS antenna for the 355 or what ever navigator you settle on. The  2020 can not feed another navigator. 

Keeping the old CDI will entail challenges in panel space on where to locate it. 

Is it for display of the old non WAAS unit only? By saying "the only nav radio"  are you referring to ILS/VOR capability? I'm guessing you are,

Your 900 is a good instrument and keeping it is basically a personal decision rather than to display the engines on the HDX.  

Looks like a nice panel could be done that way.  

The bigger question might be "What color are you going to make the new panel"?  :-)

 

 

[cwaters]

9 minutes ago, cliffy said:

You will have airspeed backup in the required EFIS D-10A stand by indicator. Required per the STC so the old ASI can actually go bye bye  Your shop did include the EFIS D-10A in the estimate - correct? 

Make sure you read the actual STC in the Dynon Install Manual and not just the advertising. 

2.1 Required Equipment The SkyView HDX System STC SA02594SE requires that the following equipment be installed: • HDX1100 or HDX800 • EFIS-D10A Standby Display • SV-ADAHRS-200 ADAHRS • SV-OAT-340 Outside Air Temperature sensor • SV-GPS-2020 GPS Antenna/Receiver • SV-MAG-236 Remote Magnetometer • SV-BAT-320 Backup Battery

You do not need the backup battery for the D-10 as it is not required by the STC Only if you want it. A cost and downstream maintenance item Think of the failure modes you're likely to see. 

The SV-GPS-2020 antenna/receiver is only for the Dynon screen and is not IFR certified You will need to install another GPS WAAS antenna for the 355 or what ever navigator you settle on. The  2020 can not feed another navigator. 

Keeping the old CDI will entail challenges in panel space on where to locate it. 

Is it for display of the old non WAAS unit only? By saying "the only nav radio"  are you referring to ILS/VOR capability? I'm guessing you are,

Your 900 is a good instrument and keeping it is basically a personal decision rather than to display the engines on the HDX.  

Looks like a nice panel could be done that way.  

The bigger question might be "What color are you going to make the new panel"?  :-)

 

 

yes the EFIS was included in the estimate

I understand the GPS antenna (2020) cannot drive the 355 and will need a separate antenna. 

Why not go with the backup battery? I can see the why install it from a "why need" standpoint, meaning if the alternator died I still have the plane battery to get on the ground with and would not be in a situation where I needed the separate backup battery, am i missing anything there ?

 

The CDI I think I would put right below the current location of the 900 and is for dysplay of the old non-waas GPS (430) for the ILS/VOR capability (I don't like single point of failure) 

The 900 is an instrument that I like and am comfortable with and shaves some $$ from not needing the Dynon engine monitoring system 

Now for your important question; I don't know. I'm a fan of gunmetal grey and a carbon fiber look 

[cliffy]

 

Where is your 900 now installed?  The old CDI will need to be in the required "field of view" of the pilot and not over on the right side of the panel, Is there room with the width of the EFIS D-10 and the HDX screen to put the CDI on the left side?

The HDX has a required back up battery SO IF you lose the alternator you have the aircraft battery and then the HDX back up battery to get down on. The D-10 will work as long as you have ship's battery.

If the HDX screen dies you have the D-10 (using ship's power) to get down on immediately   The chances of having the Ship's power die at the same time the HDX screen dies is remote BUT it can't hurt to have a back up battery for the D-10 also - just more items to keep airworthy over the years. Personal choice.

My shop likes the carbon fiber look but I'm thinking a different direction-medium brown walnut burl like on my classic Rolls Royce  :-)