Garmin requires a DP endpoint?

[RobertGary1]

Double check me here, I'm probably doing something dumb.

Last night was given TORRO7 SNS->v111->MOD.... DP out of KMRY (Monterey CA). My Garmin GPS in the cockpit required me to enter an endpoint of the DP and provided me a list of all the VORs shown on the DP with the exception of SNS. Garmin Pilot on my iPad allowed me to choose "none" for the exit point of the DP but then added MANSEQ south of SNS as an exit point (which is wrong)

I've also got Foreflight but not too good with it. Doesn't appear you can select DPs and transitions from a drop down in your route in ForeFlight but you can hand type TORRO7 SNS V111 MOD and it takes that.

Is Garmin wrong to make me choose from one of the VORs (excluding SNS)? The procedure just says "expect vectors after passing SNS R-210". In the end I just didn't enter the DP in my flight plan in my in panel GPS.

[Ragsf15e]

2 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

Double check me here, I'm probably doing something dumb.

Last night was given TORRO7 SNS->v111->MOD.... DP out of KMRY (Monterey CA). My Garmin GPS in the cockpit required me to enter an endpoint of the DP and provided me a list of all the VORs shown on the DP with the exception of SNS. Garmin Pilot on my iPad allowed me to choose "none" for the exit point of the DP but then added MANSEQ south of SNS as an exit point (which is wrong)

I've also got Foreflight but not too good with it. Doesn't appear you can select DPs and transitions from a drop down in your route in ForeFlight but you can hand type TORRO7 SNS V111 MOD and it takes that.

Is Garmin wrong to make me choose from one of the VORs (excluding SNS)? The procedure just says "expect vectors after passing SNS R-210". In the end I just didn't enter the DP in my flight plan in my in panel GPS.

Not an answer, but I noticed the same on my G1000 system at work when I started using Garmin navdata.  I don’t think my previous Jepp navdata required it.  Honestly, I just select the first vor listed even though it’s not on my clnc or route.  That lets me load the DP but it won’t sequence to that vor because there’s a “man seq” leg in there.  It does force you to pay close attention to your programmed flight plan.

[kpaul]

What GPS are you using?  I jumped on the GTN simulator app and it loads the TORO7 with the transition grayed out and says "None available"  once loaded its way points are runway heading 098 to 660' then HDG 060. 

[Bob - S50]

I'm surprised it let you load the departure at all since it is a 'radar vectors' departure.

[RobertGary1]

29 minutes ago, Bob - S50 said:

I'm surprised it let you load the departure at all since it is a 'radar vectors' departure.

Eventually but it starts with a heading. 

[GeeBee]

Don't load it. It is a vector departure. Who cares?

 

 

[kortopates]

2 hours ago, GeeBee said:

Don't load it. It is a vector departure. Who cares?

 

 

If my routing didn't already include SNS, why not load it just to be primed to follow the lost comm instructions should it happen? If it does include SNS, yeah, I don't see the point either. 

[RobertGary1]

3 minutes ago, kortopates said:

If my routing didn't already include SNS, why not load it just to be primed to follow the lost comm instructions should it happen? If it does include SNS, yeah, I don't see the point either. 

But the clearance isn’t to go direct to sns. It’s to fly 060 until told to proceed to sns

[PT20J]

1 hour ago, RobertGary1 said:

But the clearance isn’t to go direct to sns. It’s to fly 060 until told to proceed to sns

Heading hold?

[GeeBee]

Since the airway comes out of SNS, you already have SNS in the box. If you have lost comm, you activate direct SNS. Still no need to load the departure. Just fly the heading. Not everything needs to be in the box. 

 

[midlifeflyer]

It's a pure vector SID with no course guidance. There are a number of them in the US. Most pilots are a bit confused by them the first time they see one. There's no guarantee with these that you will have any transition, although later GPS units have begun putting in dotted lines to transitions - dotted to signify you don't follow them. SNS us not in the database list because it is not identified as a transition fix, just a reference  point (crossing the R210) 

your clearance route came down to: turn left heading 060 expect radar vectors SNS after crossing the SNS 210 degree radial, V111 MOD. 

Agree with @GeeBee. Whether you bother with the box us up to you. I probably would just out of habit.

 

 

Edited April 19, 2021 by midlifeflyer

[RobertGary1]

3 hours ago, GeeBee said:

Since the airway comes out of SNS, you already have SNS in the box. If you have lost comm, you activate direct SNS. Still no need to load the departure. Just fly the heading. Not everything needs to be in the box. 

 

Well of course. It’s not like I declined the clearance.  But the point is should Garmin have required me to enter one of the other vors as a condition of loading jt. Maybe the question is too academic 

[PT20J]

2 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

Well of course. It’s not like I declined the clearance.  But the point is should Garmin have required me to enter one of the other vors as a condition of loading jt. Maybe the question is too academic 

Did you ever mention which model GPS you have? Maybe they’re not all the same. 

[thinwing]

ive flown this dp a few times to sac...everytime it was sns.v111 mod lin....but....as soon I climbed to cruise enroute SNS...i was usually cleared direct.....as others have said....no need to load anything....just takeoff in heading mode...

[RobertGary1]

38 minutes ago, thinwing said:

ive flown this dp a few times to sac...everytime it was sns.v111 mod lin....but....as soon I climbed to cruise enroute SNS...i was usually cleared direct.....as others have said....no need to load anything....just takeoff in heading mode...

Right and that’s what I did (to mather) Was more curious about garmins approach to this.  Why did they choose to exclude only sns in this list of depicted vors. Why did they force me to pick a vor?

[midlifeflyer]

3 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

Right and that’s what I did (to mather) Was more curious about garmins approach to this.  Why did they choose to exclude only sns in this list of depicted vors. Why did they force me to pick a vor?

Because it is part of the database for the SID. If you want to enter it, just pick one closest to your route.

[kpaul]

3 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

Right and that’s what I did (to mather) Was more curious about garmins approach to this.  Why did they choose to exclude only sns in this list of depicted vors. Why did they force me to pick a vor?

Which GPS Navigator are you using?

[RobertGary1]

This is on my gnx 375. Nearly identical  to the gnc650. 
 

Some people pointed out that there is no requirement to load DPs. Which is true but kind of misses the point of trying to understand what Garmin is doing. 
I think one person said just go direct sns which isn’t correct. 
 

So I took a video. I did select sjc just for grins. Then it lets me load the procedure. Shows the heading and the radial intercept for when to expect vectors as the procedure depicts. But of course then sends me out to sjc.  But I was able to delete sjc on the flight plan and put in sns and then it all worked.  

So just a little strange that Garmin requires a transition which the procedure does not. Then Garmin makes me pick from all but one of the vors shown on the procedure (which of course mine was the missing one).  

[RobertGary1]

Another interesting thing about this is that when I fired up the plane Garmin  pilot popped up and said my clearance had been updated from what I’d filed. It asked if I wanted to load it snd then asked to push it to the gnx 375. Although that updated didn’t show the dp. Almost wonder if the airport just added the dp by habit because even approach seemed not to know if I was given it. 
But in short it was cool I could load the routing into the 375 just by accepting what the FAA sent to my iPad.  

[midlifeflyer]

13 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

think one person said just go direct sns which isn’t correct. 

I don't recall anyone saying or even suggesting you should just "go direct" to SNS, More likely they said don't  bother with the SID at all and just make SNS the first GPS enroute waypoint. You will get a magenta line from the airport to SNS, but that does not mean disregard the vectors and "go direct" there. Quite the opposite. You fly the vectors you are given, no matter what you put in the GPS.

It's the same as being vectored for an approach. You  "activate leg" or touch VTF. Just like your scenario, the magenta line is nothing more than situational awareness. You fly the assigned vectors, not follow the magenta line.

Even though I would do it differently, the choice to put SNS as the initial enroute waypoint is based on looking at the charts and understanding the clearance. forget the GPS for a moment What is the clearance and chart telling you to do? Turn left heading 060 and expect radar vectors to SNS after crossing the radial. Period. What if you lose coms and following the lost comm rule is the best choice? "Expect radar vectors SNS, V111..." isn' "go direct SNS" after crossing the radial exactly what you would do?

You conform the GPS to your clearance, not vice versa. "Oh. SNS is not a listed transition and there is no GPS guidance for the 060 turn or the radial." So what? 

 

 

 

[midlifeflyer]

9 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

Another interesting thing about this is that when I fired up the plane Garmin  pilot popped up and said my clearance had been updated from what I’d filed. It asked if I wanted to load it snd then asked to push it to the gnx 375. Although that updated didn’t show the dp. Almost wonder if the airport just added the dp by habit because even approach seemed not to know if I was given it. 
But in short it was cool I could load the routing into the 375 just by accepting what the FAA sent to my iPad.  

Which runway did you use?

That aside, it looks like you found a choice which works very well. Load whatever as a transition and delete it. It is something which works well in a multitude of situations. Plus in the later Garmins like yours, it provided full guidance and IMO, is a better choice than not loading at all.

Edited April 20, 2021 by midlifeflyer

[midlifeflyer]

BTW, for the Avidyne users, you'll see that it does not have a selection list of transitions for this SID at all. You just enter the next enroute waypoint and get the vector "barber pole."

 

[RobertGary1]

56 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

I don't recall anyone saying or even suggesting you should just "go direct" to SNS, More likely they said don't  bother with the SID at all and just make SNS the first GPS enroute waypoint. You will get a magenta line from the airport to SNS, but that does not mean disregard the vectors and "go direct" there. Quite the opposite. You fly the vectors you are given, no matter what you put in the GPS.

It's the same as being vectored for an approach. You  "activate leg" or touch VTF. Just like your scenario, the magenta line is nothing more than situational awareness. You fly the assigned vectors, not follow the magenta line.

Even though I would do it differently, the choice to put SNS as the initial enroute waypoint is based on looking at the charts and understanding the clearance. forget the GPS for a moment What is the clearance and chart telling you to do? Turn left heading 060 and expect radar vectors to SNS after crossing the radial. Period. What if you lose coms and following the lost comm rule is the best choice? "Expect radar vectors SNS, V111..." isn' "go direct SNS" after crossing the radial exactly what you would do?

You conform the GPS to your clearance, not vice versa. "Oh. SNS is not a listed transition and there is no GPS guidance for the 060 turn or the radial." So what? 

 

 

 

But that’s not the point. Flying is trivial. It’s learning the ins and outs of the box. No one is suggesting there was any challenge to flying it. 

[carusoam]

RG,

There are few people that know the various boxes, the procedures, and how to fly them better than MidLife...

With the willingness to post pics to support the answer...

Getting the answer out of him probably takes asking it in a consumer friendly way...  

If he didn’t answer the question you asked...

 

It is a great question... but I had to read it several times to figure out what the issues really are...

 

Recap... if you write your question clearly...   you won’t have to shoot the answerer...   

Best regards,

-a-

[RobertGary1]

1 hour ago, midlifeflyer said:

BTW, for the Avidyne users, you'll see that it does not have a selection list of transitions for this SID at all. You just enter the next enroute waypoint and get the vector "barber pole."

 

That is what I’d expect. I wonder if it’s a bug that Garmin is asking for a transition. The vors are shown for reference but they aren’t listed on the chart as transitions.