252/encore vs. Ovation

[jshill]

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New to the forum, not to Mooney.

 

Owned an '81 M20J model for 5 years, sold about 5 years ago, and am looking into getting back into the owners game. (Currently flying behind C182/210, I feel so ashamed...)

 

I've got a specific mission in mind and would value your input.

 

Based out of Minneapolis (KFCM), and making regular travels to Boulder CO for family/business reasons. Usually fly into Boulder or Jeffco (KBJC). Distance just a shade under 600 nm. Commercial air service between MPLS and Denver is regular enuf, but the experience just sucks, and seems to get worse with time

 

I'm stunned by the drop in AC values in the last 5 years. That said, it now makes looking at 252's or Ovations a legitimate option.

 

Question: With a purchase budget of about 200K +/-, any good reason's to look at one over the other? I fly alone most every time. I don't want glass but have come to love a G430/530. Local weather makes TKS important good part of the year. Seems to be a number of both 252/Encore's and Ovation within the target range.

 

I'd be curious about actual experience with operating costs of each, actual average annual expenses, overall hourly rate all-in expenses incurred, etc. I'm sufficiently jaded to know aviation is expensive.

 

I've got experience with Willmar and do not consider the additional training to proficiency in either an obstacle. Good folks there.

 

Thanks for any insight

 

Jeff Hill

[Parker_Woodruff]

I have a 252 that is currently undergoing an Encore conversion. There are a lot of Encores on the market right now, which is rare.  You need dispatch reliability for regular trips, which can be had with both aircraft.  I don't know what your summer months are like, but I'd rather have a turbo helping me climb quickly above the scattered cells around here. Also, DA is a factor. For that reason, I'd probably settle with the turbo - but the Ovation likely climbs well enough.

 

Fuel economy might be a touch better in the Encore and you'll be making about the same speeds. Ovation a bit basted until you hit8000 or so, but even the 252/Encore option is going to be pushing Ovation speeds if you take advantage of high power LOP settings.   You can be at O2 altitudes leaving Boulder in under 10 mins. Having 100% power is nice if you need to climb through a higher up layer of ice - you want to minimize your time there. Would you rather be trying to do that at 15,000 in a turbo or an Ovation that's maybe dropped to 400-500/min in the climb---BEFORE you factor in a load of ice?

[Parker_Woodruff]

Also, if you're looking for a good guy who is selling a lot of planes locally to you, I'd recommend Tim Lundquist at Strategic Aircraft. A lot of his sales happen before a plane even hits the market - maybe he knows of a nice bird for your mission.

http://strategicaircraft.com/listings/

[Piloto]

[Piloto]

An Ovation with the 310HP mod will beat the 252 below FL 200 in speed and climb performance. The Ovation has also a larger baggage area. Keep in mind hat the when flying west bound you are better off at the lower altitudes due to the westerly winds, At the lower altitudes the Ovation would have the advantage over the 252. Leaning LOP is also easier on the Ovation thus you get better economy.

 

José

[Parker_Woodruff]

Lean of peak, the Ovation 1 & 2 are 170-175 knot birds with maybe the 310 HP model able to do a little better. I know at ~70% power at 14k (ROP), my M20K will true at ~173 KTAS. I imagine once my induction leaks are fixed I'll be able to get significantly better airspeeds when able to run LOP at high power settings.

Will report back on that. 

[jlunseth]

Your question is basically, given two Mooneys of roughly comparable performance, one NA and the other turbo, which is best for your mission.  I have made several trips "out west" in the past two years.  If you were gong further west than Boulder, I would say the turbo definitely.  Mpls. to Boulder does not involve mountain flying however, so the Ovation would be fine.

Someone pointed out that the winds are not always favorable in the flight levels, and that is true.  I would say that about half the trips we have taken allowed us to fly west up high with little or no penalty.  About half the time we either stay lower, or use the turbo to overtop the weather and take a penalty for it.

The big benefit from of the turbo IMHO is the ability to overtop most weather.  Getting above the build up six months of the year means flying in glass smooth air.  Way less stressful.  The Ovation is capable of getting up fairly high, and somewhere between 12 and 16,000 will usually do it, but we have also flown several trips where we needed 20,000 or even higher to overtop the weather.  It is sure better than going through, or taking a long detour around.  

Every trip we have taken out there has been fast coming home.  Some have been really fast.  We came back to Mpls. In 3:40 from Alamosa a month ago.  Ground speeds as high as 245 kt's., and we have seen even faster.  my vote just because of the length of the trip would be turbo, trips of that length invariably involve some weather event, and the turbo gives you more flexibility in that regard.

[GeorgePerry]

I would also look really hard at a M20K Rocket conversion.  There are several really nice ones on the market right now and the prices have never been lower.  Near Acclaim performance at about 1/3 the acquisition costs.

http://www.rocketengineering.com/content/mooney-305-rocket

 

http://www.mooneyland.com/mooney_rocket.htm

[jlunseth]

Well, given the mission profile, FIKI is probably a must.  We saw our first ice of the fall season in Sept. at 10,000 on a trip back to KFCM from SE Wisconsin.  From Nov. to April it is an issue any time there is cloud cover, which is often.  I think the Rocket is a great plane, but can't be made FIKI as I understand it.  Both the 252 and the Ovation can.

Travel between MSP and Boulder would be very unreliable during the winter without FIKI.

Why would the OP not consider a Bravo?

 

 

[Parker_Woodruff]

Big fuel burn difference on the Bravo, and to see a significant savings in time, you need a trip longer than 600 miles. 

 

Youre talking 10-11 NMPG vs 15-16+ with a 252

[M20F]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

and to see a significant savings in time, you need a trip longer than 600 miles. 

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: M20F

KFCM to KBJC is 594.3 NM's is it really as tight as 5.7 miles?

[jshill]

I remember being weathered-im in Wyoming due to TS on one summer trip, and a Bravo owner was also there. He kept talking about how much he missed his 252. Not against a Bravo per-se, but sees like significant increase operating expense vs. encore.

According to my wife, I'm wrong all the time, so again any advice  welcome. Thanks for all the feedback.

(3.5 hrs from Alamosa to MPLS makes my eyes water. Last time I wasa there the United flight to DIA scrubbed and I had to drive to Denver, then fly home. Took 2 days)

[orangemtl]

Quote: jshill

I remember being weathered-im in Wyoming due to TS on one summer trip, and a Bravo owner was also there. He kept talking about how much he missed his 252. Not against a Bravo per-se, but sees like significant increase operating expense vs. encore.

According to my wife, I'm wrong all the time, so again any advice  welcome. Thanks for all the feedback.

(3.5 hrs from Alamosa to MPLS makes my eyes water. Last time I wasa there the United flight to DIA scrubbed and I had to drive to Denver, then fly home. Took 2 days)

[jlunseth]

Quote: orangemtl

[KSMooniac]

I don't think you could go wrong with either choice if your western-most regular destination is Boulder.  Sounds like FIKI should be a requirement for you, and that will limit the number of candidate 252's.  There is one very experienced all-weather Ovation owner on the email lists that regularly flew between OH and CT year-round with his FIKI Ovation.  I believe he frequently flew up in the teens to get on top of that WX.  Not sure if that would be similar to MN-CO weather patterns in the winter, but surely the K would have a greater ability to get higher if needed.

Other points to consider... buying one already equipped with TKS will be much cheaper since the conversion costs $40k+ currently.  As mentioned above, the Ovation will have a bigger baggage area and perhaps a much newer airframe compared to a 252 (but not necessarily compared to an Encore).  That may be more desirable, but it also might lead to higher property taxes in your locale.  Useful loads on the 252 can be quite limited, but better on the Encore.

A Rocket could be a very intriguing choice.  AAA in San Antonio recently had a 1988 252--> Rocket for sale with TKS (can't remember if it was FIKI or not) for $189k list, and it looked like a peach.  That was probably one of the very last conversions, too.

[jlunseth]

Penn Yan has a Rocket for sale on Controller with "TKS," but it does not say FIKI.  I am not an expert on Rockets and TKS, but someone else said FIKI can't be done on a Rocket.  Inadvertent TKS can be done on a 231 also, but not FIKI because no second generator. 

Unfortunatly, does not do you much good to have the TKS without FIKI, because you cannot legally take off into, let's say, an overcast in the winter if icing conditions are present, even if it is thin and you just want to punch through it.

Have to read the ads carefully, if they say "TKS!!!" that means inadvertent only, but they want you to be excited enough to look past it.  If it does not say "FIKI" or "Known Ice" then it is inadvertent.

Yes, a Rocket equipped for known ice would be a most excellent machine. 

[BorealOne]

JShill, welcome to the forums. I've got basically the same mission profile as you - lots of 600-700 nm trips where FIKI is a must. Most of my missions are flown in the 8-12,000 range. I decided in favour of an Ovation over an Bravo because of the reliabiity, relatively low maintenance and operating costs associated with the IO-550 compared with its fire-breathing cousin. I'd like a turbo - sure, who wouldn't - but with winter cloud tops in my part of the world rarely getting higher than 15k, I find the Ovation will get me there easily enough.

As to costs, I'm in my first year of Ovation ownership. I bought a 1996 model with 1100h, and have put another 400h on it since. I budgeted 30k for upgrades and maintenance in the first year, and have come pretty close to that with a full KFC150 autopilot overhaul, upgrading the 530 to WAAS, replacing the O2 bottle, fixing a leak in a fuel tank and a couple of 100h inspections. I suspect that this is on the higher end of the maintence spend, but the price I paid for the plane (~185k) took some of that into consideration.

Realistic fuel burn in an Ovation at 8k-12k operated LOP for west-bound cross country trips is 13gph, 12 gph eastbound. I flight plan 165 TAS, which is on the conservative side - usually I'm indicating 170 or so in flight.

As to the 252/Encore - I really didn't look closely at that model, as I wanted a long body model for family trips. I also appreciate the extra room when solo - esp. during winter ops, when you're packing wing + engine covers + 5 gallons of TKS fluid, as well as whatever else personal baggage into the baggage.

Enjoy the search - sounds like you are considering two fantastic alternatives.

[Parker_Woodruff]

The Rocket cannot be equipped FIKI.

[KSMooniac]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

The Rocket cannot be equipped FIKI.

[jlunseth]

yes, unfortunately it is not the airframe, its the way the engine is configured I am pretty sure, and the engine is completely changed out to make the Rocket.

[RJBrown]

A Rocket with TKS is not FIKI. BUT in reality neither is a FIKI plane. A forecast that includes the possibility of ice is not Known ice. Reports of ice constitute Known ice. I would not fly a FIKI into Known Ice. For me any condition that would make dispatching illegal with just TKS are too bad for FIKI. Both serve the same purpose in protecting from inadvertent ice. The Rockets ability to climb out of ice makes it the safest one. A 252 with FIKI may not have the option to climb. At 20K they are under 500 fpm. A Ovation has no climb that high. A Rocket is still doing 1000 fpm or more at 26k at gross. Solo with half tanks (50gal) I have seen 1500 fpm at 26k. 

I also live in the West and never visit the North East. I flew a Rocket for about 800 hours without TKS. I would NOT choose it as an option because of cost (high) benefit (low) for my type of flying.

Is there a real need to dispatch into known ice? Is it reasonable to take off in freezing fog/drizzle knowing the sun is shining 2000 feet up? I am of the opinion, one not based in experience, that the difference between plain TKS and FIKI is that with FIKI you can legally do something stupid. Is my opinion wrong or just too cautious?

[RJBrown]

Quote: KSMooniac

Even if it started out as a 252?  

[aviatoreb]

Quote: RJBrown

A Rocket with TKS is not FIKI. BUT in reality neither is a FIKI plane. A forecast that includes the possibility of ice is not Known ice. Reports of ice constitute Known ice.

I would not fly a FIKI into Known Ice. For me any condition that would make dispatching illegal with just TKS are too bad for FIKI. Both serve the same purpose in protecting from inadvertent ice. The Rockets ability to climb out of ice makes it the safest one. A 252 with FIKI may not have the option to climb. At 20K they are under 500 fpm. A Ovation has no climb that high. A Rocket is still doing 1000 fpm or more at 26k at gross. Solo with half tanks (50gal) I have seen 1500 fpm at 26k. 

I also live in the West and never visit the North East. I flew a Rocket for about 800 hours without TKS. I would NOT choose it as an option because of cost (high) benefit (low) for my type of flying.

Is there a real need to dispatch into known ice? Is it reasonable to take off in freezing fog/drizzle knowing the sun is shining 2000 feet up? I am of the opinion, one not based in experience, that the difference between plain TKS and FIKI is that with FIKI you can legally do something stupid. Is my opinion wrong or just too cautious?

[KSMooniac]

Thanks for the clarification.  I (erroneously) assumed that a 2nd alternator could be added to a Rocket to preserve FIKI certification if the donor airframe started that way.  Perhaps someone with a friendly FSDO could get a 337 cert that way, but as you adroitly articulated it is likely an academic exercise anyway and shouldn't give the prudent pilot a license to make a dumb decision and launch into really bad weather. 

I'm a chicken with ice in my non-TKS J, and would be just slightly less so in a K with TKS.