Approved vs Cleared

[Fry]

Hi there,

I am participating in a discussion in a German internet forum about the difference - or equality - of the words "approved" vs "cleared".

Questions to the UK or US pilots:

* Is being "approved" the same as having a clearance? If yes, what is the difference?

* What is the correct word being used in connection with airspaces? I have heard "cleared into class Bravo" but never "approved". On the other hand, forum members say that "crossing class Charlie approved" is common and correct phraseology.

* If the two words mean something different, then what is the difference? And if they mean the same, are they both correct phraseology or is one of them "slang", i.e. colloquial language.

* Finally, is there a difference in FAA vs. ICAO about this?

Thanks for your input,

Fry

[Bob - S50]

To me there is no significant difference.  Typically, if ATC is initiating the clearance they will start with cleared.  "cleared via direct XXXXX then as filed."  If I have initiated a request such as "request direct XXXXX then as filed" it is not uncommon for me to hear "approved as requested".

[rbridges]

I'm curious myself.  I think they practically mean the same thing, but the FAA loves semantics.  

[Fry]

@smwash: just as a side note: outside of the FAA-world (where ICAO rules are obeyed), class Charlie and Delta require clearances as well. Not only Bravo. Germany, e.g. does not use the airspace classes Alpha and Bravo, but uses Charlie in a similar way as Alpha and Bravo are used in the US, i.e. close to busy airports and at high altitude where IFR is prevalent.

[RLCarter]

I’m in the same camp as @Bob - S50, if ATC initiates then they use Cleared , if ATC is responding to a request then it’s Approved

[kortopates]

It's probably more of a distinction between when a clearance is required and when it's not. IFR, Everything is "cleared" as or to etc. But VFR traffic should first be "cleared" through the Bravo and then when they make a altitude and/or route request they commonly use "approved" as requested. The latter is not a clearance, former into airspace was.


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[midlifeflyer]

2 hours ago, kortopates said:

It's probably more of a distinction between when a clearance is required and when it's not. IFR, Everything is "cleared" as or to etc. But VFR traffic should first be "cleared" through the Bravo and then when they make a altitude and/or route request they commonly use "approved" as requested. The latter is not a clearance, former into airspace was.


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Makes sense to me.

[Hank]

5 hours ago, kortopates said:

It's probably more of a distinction between when a clearance is required and when it's not. IFR, Everything is "cleared" as or to etc. But VFR traffic should first be "cleared" through the Bravo and then when they make a altitude and/or route request they commonly use "approved" as requested. The latter is not a clearance, former into airspace was.


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I've been Approved to deviate left / right of course for weather, once even "approved to deviate as required for weather" when I asked. And yes, I was IFR and trying to reach & maintain VMC in unpleasant conditions. 

[jlunseth]

 

6 hours ago, kortopates said:

It's probably more of a distinction between when a clearance is required and when it's not. IFR, Everything is "cleared" as or to etc. But VFR traffic should first be "cleared" through the Bravo and then when they make a altitude and/or route request they commonly use "approved" as requested. The latter is not a clearance, former into airspace was.


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That's it. In the OPs example one does not need a clearance to fly through C airspace. You need to hear the controller say your tail number so you know you have radio contact but you do not need a clearance. You need a clearance through the Bravo, you won't hear the controller say "approved" through the Bravo. One reason for the "cleared" language in an IFR clearance is that it ties to the NORDO rules.  If you become NORDO on takeoff then you have a route, a fix, and an altitude to use in following the NORDO rules.  ATC expects you to be where you were told to be when you were told to be there. If you ask for a weather deviation enroute, you have already been given a clearance to an altitude, route and fix, now you can vary the route a little, but for NORDO purposes you must still adhere to the clearance you received, either that or get a new clearance.

But different words can mean different things in other countries, even though in theory everyone follows ICAO, so you can't necessarily equate "approved" in the UK, for example, to the same use of the word here.

[kortopates]

44 minutes ago, Hank said:

I've been Approved to deviate left / right of course for weather, once even "approved to deviate as required for weather" when I asked. And yes, I was IFR and trying to reach & maintain VMC in unpleasant conditions. 

Good example, because your request did not mean a change in clearance, your deviation was "approved". But like John was referring too above and your deviation took you further and further away from your cleared route such that you needed a re-routing, then eventually you may well get an amended clearance. I've had that happen too when I deviated so far there was no chance I would ever get back to my original cleared route and needed an amended clearance. 

[midlifeflyer]

15 hours ago, kortopates said:

Good example, because your request did not mean a change in clearance, your deviation was "approved". But like John was referring too above and your deviation took you further and further away from your cleared route such that you needed a re-routing, then eventually you may well get an amended clearance. I've had that happen too when I deviated so far there was no chance I would ever get back to my original cleared route and needed an amended clearance. 

Got one of those a few years ago. It was summer and they were giving me vectors around some weather. The vector was taking me further and further fro my route. It had been "advise when you can proceed on course." Then it turned into "I have an amendment to our clearance. Advise when ready to copy." Plenty of examples.  When parcticing approaches under VFR, there's a significant difference between being "cleared for the approach" and "practice approach approved."  We are "cleared" to land, but a requested transition through Class D is "approved."

But I don't think it's about "approved" having some special meaning. It's about "cleared" having a special meaning and being limited to certain activities.

[kortopates]

28 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

Got one of those a few years ago. It was summer and they were giving me vectors around some weather. The vector was taking me further and further fro my route. It had been "advise when you can proceed on course." Then it turned into "I have an amendment to our clearance. Advise when ready to copy." Plenty of examples.  When parcticing approaches under VFR, there's a significant difference between being "cleared for the approach" and "practice approach approved."  We are "cleared" to land, but a requested transition through Class D is "approved."

But I don't think it's about "approved" having some special meaning. It's about "cleared" having a special meaning and being limited to certain activities.

exactly 

[StevenL757]

On 8/10/2020 at 10:20 AM, Bob - S50 said:

To me there is no significant difference.  Typically, if ATC is initiating the clearance they will start with cleared.  "cleared via direct XXXXX then as filed."  If I have initiated a request such as "request direct XXXXX then as filed" it is not uncommon for me to hear "approved as requested".

Exactly where I was heading with that...