New G5 TAS and Wind OAT probe required?

[Ragsf15e]

So the G5 has some cool new capabilities with TAS and winds, however, it seems you need a gad13 computer, and a temp probe.  Call me crazy, but I don’t want temp probes sticking out all over the airplane.  

I already have one feeding the JPI 930.  The 930 and my garmin 430w are connected and exchange airdata through a serial connection.  Temp seems to be part of that because the 430 temp always matches the jpi.

Does anyone think there’s a way to pass the temp from the 430w to the g5 since they are connected anyway?

[EricJ]

Does the 430 not have an air data computer that will show TAS?   If you pop it out and put an IFD440 in there you'd have it. 

 

[Steve W]

Last time I asked the answer was 'no'. That would make things too easy I guess. 

[Emmet]

Definitely no

[ArtVandelay]

Data goes only 1 way :
G5 to GPS
JPI to GPS



Tom

[Ragsf15e]

11 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

Data goes only 1 way :
G5 to GPS
JPI to GPS



Tom

Dang.  

[Ragsf15e]

38 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Does the 430 not have an air data computer that will show TAS?   If you pop it out and put an IFD440 in there you'd have it. 

 

Yeah, I use that function on the 430 all the time, but that’s like two knob twists and a couple button pushes.  Plus, I have to put my snacks down and wipe my fingers.  

[Ragsf15e]

41 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Does the 430 not have an air data computer that will show TAS?   If you pop it out and put an IFD440 in there you'd have it. 

 

How does the IFD get CAS and mag heading or do you have to input that just like the 430?

[Ragsf15e]

3 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

Dang.  

 

16 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

Data goes only 1 way :
G5 to GPS
JPI to GPS



Tom

Wait, that’s not right, the G5 gets nav and distance data from the 430... that means data goes GPS-G5.  Maybe it supplies temp too?

[EricJ]

Just now, Ragsf15e said:

How does the IFD get CAS and mag heading or do you have to input that just like the 430?

AFAIK it gets it from the G5.   There's no other place in my airplane that it can get it.

[Steve W]

I'd also settle for the G5 feeding OAT to the 430 feeding to the JPI.

Alternatively, if I had gotten an experimental I could have designed an interface so one OAT probe can feed multiple devices.

Well, I could, but after FAA approval no one would want to pay $10,000 for it.

 

 

Edited August 16, 2019 by Steve W

[ArtVandelay]

Wait, that’s not right, the G5 gets nav and distance data from the 430... that means data goes GPS-G5.  Maybe it supplies temp too?

Yes, but maybe it’s the RS232 protocols they are using. The JPI talks to the gps via FADC but receives Aviation. So data fuel flow data only goes in 1 direction.
The G5s only talk MapMX for both directions, maybe MapMX doesn’t include OAT? The Garmin guy responded to this question over on BT, the answer was a definite No.
I’m guess the temperature probe communicates via the CAN bus to the G5.


Tom

[FlyingDude]

Hey guys,

I did some research on this and read the installation manuals for 430W and G5. They concur with what you say. Here’s my findings: Jpi700 can output shadin words on rs232 if you select output “gpsc-7” which includes OAT. 430w receives that on serial input #1 configured as shadin fadc. 430w can output mapmx waas data on serial port, which is what G5 consumes at its serial port. 430w can also output aviation data on serial port which JPI can accept but g5 doesn’t. I couldn’t find any outside air temperature in either data format. So if oat data travels from jpi to 430w, it won’t be relayed to g5 and jpi can’t talk to g5 directly... the official g5 temp sensor communicates to g5 over Can bus.

you all agree?

I have a few questions regarding the EB6 page on 430w for you guys:

- does the temperature field on 430w get filled in automatically if it’s connected to jpi700? 
- I found that g5 outputs data on rs232 port only in hsi mode (not in AI mode). So indicated airspeed cannot be relayed to 430w. Right?
- does 430w show TAS on the map page as a field in any potential configuration? If yes, where does it get IAS from?

- I dont have a magnetometer, so my G5 gets track info from 430w. In that case, would I still have to punch heading or can 430w figure out the true (or magnetic) heading somehow, when calculating wind aloft info?

rs232 and can transceivers are simple things. Is there a shadin fadc to G5 canbus interface? I’m wondering if there’s a device out there that handles the data repackaging... 

Thanks guys.

Edited January 27, 2021 by FlyingDude

[flyboy0681]

I had an OAT probe installed along with the GI-275 and had it mounted in the front, left air scoop (Garmin approves this). I wasn't so keen on the idea on using the scoop, but when I heard the estimate of pulling out part of the interior to feed wires into the wing, I relented. In the end I don't think it is obtrusive at all because it doesn't stick out beyond the fuselage.

[AerostarDriver]

On 8/16/2019 at 5:50 PM, Steve W said:

I'd also settle for the G5 feeding OAT to the 430 feeding to the JPI.

Alternatively, if I had gotten an experimental I could have designed an interface so one OAT probe can feed multiple devices.

Well, I could, but after FAA approval no one would want to pay $10,000 for it.

 

 

I have been working on a device that emulates a Davtron C307PS (one probe in, 2,4,or 8 outputs) I have been testing it in two different experimental and I am trying to get a NORSEE approval. In all cases you would be required to have at minimum a two probes, one is required for when it is required by the TC but the second would go in to the hub and could be split out to any device that excepts a standard C307PS. Honestly, I think Garmin really screwed up by not doing this with the GAD-13.

[AerostarDriver]

26 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

I had an OAT probe installed along with the GI-275 and had it mounted in the front, left air scoop (Garmin approves this). I wasn't so keen on the idea on using the scoop, but when I heard the estimate of pulling out part of the interior to feed wires into the wing, I relented. In the end I don't think it is obtrusive at all because it doesn't stick out beyond the fuselage.

Garmin makes mounting the OAT probe for the G5 a big deal in the latest revision of the STC. They claim for the mooney it must be installed in a zone 3 or zone 2A lighting protection area. This makes mounting closer then 2.07 meters from the prop impossible unless you where to stick it directly on the chin of the cowl. Garmin also claim that the OAT probe can not be mounted TO the airframe, only to an inspection panel, at least in the G5.

[Ragsf15e]

3 hours ago, FlyingDude said:

Hey guys,

I did some research on this and read the installation manuals for 430W and G5. They concur with what you say. Here’s my findings: Jpi700 can output shadin words on rs232 if you select output “gpsc-7” which includes OAT. 430w receives that on serial input #1 configured as shadin fadc. 430w can output mapmx waas data on serial port, which is what G5 consumes at its serial port. 430w can also output aviation data on serial port which JPI can accept but g5 doesn’t. I couldn’t find any outside air temperature in either data format. So if oat data travels from jpi to 430w, it won’t be relayed to g5 and jpi can’t talk to g5 directly... the official g5 temp sensor communicates to g5 over Can bus.

you all agree?

I have a few questions regarding the EB6 page on 430w for you guys:

- does the temperature field on 430w get filled in automatically if it’s connected to jpi700? 
- I found that g5 outputs data on rs232 port only in hsi mode (not in AI mode). So indicated airspeed cannot be relayed to 430w. Right?
- does 430w show TAS on the map page as a field in any potential configuration? If yes, where does it get IAS from?

- I dont have a magnetometer, so my G5 gets track info from 430w. In that case, would I still have to punch heading or can 430w figure out the true (or magnetic) heading somehow, when calculating wind aloft info?

rs232 and can transceivers are simple things. Is there a shadin fadc to G5 canbus interface? I’m wondering if there’s a device out there that handles the data repackaging... 

Thanks guys.

My jpi930 sends temp data to my 430w and that auto populates on the air data page.  Something else (myG5?or maybe gtx-345?) sends baro altitude because that auto populates too.  Heading must also come from the G5s... however, IAS doesn’t?!  WTH? Everything except Airspeed auto populates.  You input the IASand it pops out the TAS, wind speed and wind direction.  Seems weird they couldn’t just do airspeed too?

[FlyingDude]

8 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

My jpi930 sends temp data to my 430w and that auto populates on the air data page.  Something else (myG5?or maybe gtx-345?) sends baro altitude because that auto populates too.  Heading must also come from the G5s... however, IAS doesn’t?!  WTH? Everything except Airspeed auto populates.  You input the IASand it pops out the TAS, wind speed and wind direction.  Seems weird they couldn’t just do airspeed too?

That’s really cool. Thanks. 

The wiring info on G5 installation manual shows one way communication between 430 and G5 when in AI mode.
I think baro comes from 345 along with adsb info.
Does your G5 have a magnetometer? Mine doesn’t and my G5 actually shows “track” provided by 430w... Maybe 430w can sense the heading by itself?

 

Edited January 27, 2021 by FlyingDude

[FlyingDude]

Guys, 

i just called Garmin and confirmed that it is 345 that relays density altitude to 430w and G5 doesn’t talk back to 430w. It only listens to g5. So I sent them this email. Please you do the same to aviation.support@garmin.com so that they make these changes. Good luck to us all.

“I am the proud owner of 1967 Mooney M20E N... equipped with 345, 430W, G5 and 696.  I also have a JPI700.  I'd like to view the TAS on G5 or 430W just like IAS or GS.  In either case, I'd love to read TAS on the main page (G5 already does that, so could you add TAS to the fields on 430W map page?).

 

I don't have GAD13.  JPI700 has an outside air temp (OAT) sensor.

Currently, 430W provides track info to G5.  I don't have a magnetometer.  I'm praying to afford another G5 and magnetometer to replace DG (HSI) after my vacuum dies.

 

Now: To view TAS on G5, all it needs is OAT info.  G5 has one serial port, which is connected to 430W, so I assume I cannot hook JPI to G5 directly.  I could connect JPI to send temperature to 430W but it seems like 430W doesn't further relay that to G5 (Do you confirm that?  Can you make it just relay this info?)  

430W receives density altitude from 345, therefore it doesn't really need OAT to compute TAS.  But it needs IAS.  Can you make G5 relay IAS to 430W?  Another idea is if you make 430W calculate temperature from the density altitude received from 345 and the true altitude it knows from GPS and relay that to G5.

 

Of course, today I am using the 430W or 696's EB6 page to calculate my TAS.  GAD13 is "relatively affordable" compared to other avionics, but the sensor location, installation are difficult per the STC and behind the panel is already very crammed as it is.  I don't want to add yet another box.

 

So, can you release a sw update that does at least one of these? (in order of wishlist preference)

1) 430W passes through density altitude from 345 to G5, and G5 computes TAS

2) 430W relays OAT which it receives from JPI to G5, and G5 shows TAS

3) G5 outputs IAS to 430W

4) 430W has a TAS field on main map page

5) 430W calculates OAT from density altitude and GPS altitude and relays that to G5

 

My favorite solution (#1) wouldn't even require any re-wiring.  This one would work also for all other planes with Garmin equipment and would not rely on non-garmin equipment (like my JPI).   For all other solutions, the RS232 ports are already available on both equipment, so it would only be a sw update and some rewiring.  I really do hope you can make these accommodations such that all Garmin products talk to each other seamlessly and offer an integrated solution.” 

[Ragsf15e]

11 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

My jpi930 sends temp data to my 430w and that auto populates on the air data page.  Something else (myG5?or maybe gtx-345?) sends baro altitude because that auto populates too.  Heading must also come from the G5s... however, IAS doesn’t?!  WTH? Everything except Airspeed auto populates.  You input the IASand it pops out the TAS, wind speed and wind direction.  Seems weird they couldn’t just do airspeed too?

My 430 is computing density alt from baro and temp.  My GTX345 doesn’t display it as it doesn’t get temp (even though the 430 does).

Yes I have a g5 hsi with magnameter and that info along with baro is passed to the 430... but not IAS.

Btw this is definitely a first world problem because all these inputs are easy to dial into the 430 manually.

[FlyingDude]

Certainly it is a first world problem. Maybe even a top-3% problem if not 1%... that’s why it’s fun to obsess about it. Distracts you from every day stuff and it really doesn’t matter if you can’t solve it

 anyway... 

[Andy95W]

Just install the GAD-13 and be done with it.  

The best part of the GAD13 solution is you’ll get the actual winds aloft readout (with a wind direction arrow) displayed on the G5 itself.  Well worth the extra probe and $300 (for the Davtron probe and GAD).

[FlyingDude]

31 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

Just install the GAD-13 and be done with it.  

The best part of the GAD13 solution is you’ll get the actual winds aloft readout (with a wind direction arrow) displayed on the G5 itself.  Well worth the extra probe and $300 (for the Davtron probe and GAD).

$300 where? I’m reading $470 for the gad-13 only on spruce. Add the sensor to it and a few hrs of mechanic time to test and file paperwork...

 

Edited January 27, 2021 by FlyingDude

[Skates97]

1 hour ago, Andy95W said:

Just install the GAD-13 and be done with it.  

The best part of the GAD13 solution is you’ll get the actual winds aloft readout (with a wind direction arrow) displayed on the G5 itself.  Well worth the extra probe and $300 (for the Davtron probe and GAD).

 

44 minutes ago, FlyingDude said:

$300 where? I’m reading $470 for the gad-13 only on spruce. Add the sensor to it and a few hrs of mechanic time to test and file paperwork...

 

You're looking at the GAD 13 and GTP 59

GAD 13 only - $139.00
Connector  - $42.50
Davtron C307PS - $102.75

Total - $284.25

Throw in a few more dollars for some wire and connectors.

[FlyingDude]

Sweet... My birthday is in 2 Weeks

Thank you for this info