Brake Education Part Trois

[Marauder]

Had a chance to begin part trois with some guidance from the local A&P. Hopefully this thread will help those who may be headed down the same path.

 

The AP suggested we pull the master cylinder for at least the right side since that was the first symptom. He was also perplexed about the hydraulic lock we encountered. He was concerned about the problem being common to both sides. He recommended we pull and inspect the parking brake.

 

His suspicions were well founded. When we rebuilt the right master we found the one of the O rings in rough shape. This picture shows the same O ring from the left and right master cylinders.

 

 

Here is a picture of the inner mechanism for one of the Cleveland 10-49 master cylinders I have.

 

 

I also had a squawk of the right pedal not snapping back as crisply as the left side. We found that one of the attachment pins was installed backwards and it would periodically catch the rudder shaft.

 

We also noted the play in the cylinders that Paul saw in the pictures from the earlier threads and will correct that with a washer on the sides.

 

 

The parking brake was removed and we found that the earlier work we did to rebuild it wasn’t done correctly. We managed to shave one of the O rings when we reassembled the shaft. You can see in this picture the differences in the two O rings that should be identical.

 

 

 

The bad news is we ran out of the correct O ring for the parking brake and I needed to order new ones.

 

I did purchase a new pressure pot. Hopefully this one will work better than all the gizmos we tried in our earlier attempts.

 

 

Anyone who has experience using this model, please let me know if there is anything unique to the usage. It looks like the bleed valve attachment is a metal to metal connection.

 

 

 

 

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[Yetti]

I have spent about 3 times more reading your brake threads than I did to pull, rebuild my master, and replace.    Srlsy took all of 15 minutes.  After the 5 minute walk over to get 3 o-rings from the grumpy IA.  But I got some experience.  I can do a tractor bucket cylinder in about the same time.   You are going to scare all the new people about brakes.

[orionflt]

let me know how the new pressure pot works.

Brian

[Yetti]

23 minutes ago, orionflt said:

let me know how the new pressure pot works.

Brian

That's why I use a ole timey oil can.   One of those fancy pressure pot thing, I would be shooting brake fluid all over the hanger

[orionflt]

49 minutes ago, Yetti said:

That's why I use a ole timey oil can.   One of those fancy pressure pot thing, I would be shooting brake fluid all over the hanger

I'm not actually sure I could handle using anything more then the oil can.

Brian

[Marauder]

So here’s another little tidbit from an anal retentive guy. I purchased the Lasar rebuild kit for the parking brake. The kit contains two O rings of the same dimension going on the shaft for the parking brake. A third O ring is under the reservoir attachment nut.

When I went through my parts manual, I found that there are 3 different O rings used in the parking brake.





Could explain why the one O ring was sheared off when installed.






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[Marauder]

I have spent about 3 times more reading your brake threads than I did to pull, rebuild my master, and replace.    Srlsy took all of 15 minutes.  After the 5 minute walk over to get 3 o-rings from the grumpy IA.  But I got some experience.  I can do a tractor bucket cylinder in about the same time.   You are going to scare all the new people about brakes.

They should be scared, very, very scared.

The master cylinder rebuilds took all of 5 minutes each. This go cart parking brake valve has been the challenge along with the unexplained bleeding issues.


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[Hank]

Hurry up and fix your brakes already! You've about exceeded my French . . . .  

Edited December 11, 2018 by Hank

[Marauder]

Hurry up and fix your brakes already! You've about exceeded my French . . . .  

We we


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[Hank]

24 minutes ago, Marauder said:

We we
 

 

M-sure. Next comes "cuatro," right?

[320KPH]

On 12/11/2018 at 11:31 AM, Marauder said:

 

We we


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Oui...

[Marauder]

Oui...

I’m about to wee wee all over my brakes. What a frustrating series of events. If we don’t make progress tomorrow, I’m going old school and cut a Fred Flinstone floor panel.




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[Marauder]

Another day, another chapter.

 

We think we turned the corner thanks to Brian (orionflt) and a nameless contributor.

 

First the ugly. I’ve been a firm believer in the right tool for the job. So when our first attempts failed with a couple of syringes and a Harbor Fright quality oil can didn’t pan out, I ordered a pressure pot supposedly designed for bleeding brakes. Analysis: don’t waste your money.

 

 

 

I had used a year old version of this pot in part deux but I thought the unit wasn’t maintained. I ended up with the same result with the new one.

 

Issues with it? It is basically a higher quality sprayer that has been modified.

 

1) The oversized black hose makes it extremely hard to manipulate the fitting onto the bleeder

2) The black hose doesn’t allow you to see if you are pumping air into the system (it was)

3) The bleeder attachment shown in the second picture is just too bulky to attach and impossible to ensure a solid metal to metal seal

 

I will re-engineer the gizmo to put a high density clear line on it with adapters to fit cleanly on the 1/4” bleeder. After the failed attempted with this gizmo, we elected to remove and inspect all of the work we had done.

 

When looking at the parking brake parts breakdown in the Mooney parts manual, we saw that three different O rings were identified. One under the nut that attaches the reservoir and two different ones on the shaft.

 

 

The rebuild kit from Lasar contains only 2 different types and the ones they sent for the shaft were the smaller ones.

 

I’m here to tell you, the smaller O ring is fine for the O ring required to the right of the snap ring, but it is way too big for the opening on the housing side. We had to use a reduced size O ring to make the seal fit.

 

 

Our next attention was to the master cylinders. We removed both cylinders and examined our workmanship. We used both the diagram from the Lasar rebuild kit and the Cleveland parts manual to confirm O rings and orientation. The unnamed contributor pointed us to some old MooneySpace threads that shed some light on the situation. The first was that the two notches on the one sliding adapter was there for a purpose. It was to allow air to escape. The other was the Stat-O-Seal plays a big role in the assembly. After confirming everything was rebuild correctly, we reassembled.

 

 

 

 

We elected to try another Harbor Fright oil can and a meat injector from Lowe’s.

 

 

The oil can had very little flow and after pumping it for 15 minutes without seeing fluid, we elected to tenderize the situation. We used the meat tenderizer syringe and it worked great. We got a steady flow including bubbles. Once we were convinced that fluid was through the system and we topped the reservoir we acted on Brian’s suggestion that once the system was filled we wait it out overnight.

 

The next day, sure enough, we had brake pressure on the right side and proceeded to repeat the process for the left side.

 

At this point, we have solid pressure on both pedals and once the ramps dries out, we will confirm proper braking.

 

What started out to fix a slightly soft right pedal and to replace the 43 year old brake lines turned out to be a recipe for the Christmas Scrooge.

 

 

Bah humbug!

 

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[Shadrach]

Marauder, if you PM me your address I will send you my pressure pot and you can use it until you’re finished.  Mine has a clear hose. I’m not sure if it’s sized to your nipple we’re not.  If you get the right hose diameter, it shouldn’t matter. You don’t need a mechanical connection to bleed brakes, it just needs to be an airtight friction fit.

[orionflt]

16 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Marauder, if you PM me your address I will send you my pressure pot and you can use it until you’re finished.  Mine has a clear hose. I’m not sure if it’s sized to your nipple we’re not.  If you get the right hose diameter, it shouldn’t matter. You don’t need a mechanical connection to bleed brakes, it just needs to be an airtight friction fit.

Ross, he goes for BIG nipples.... just look at his girls!

[Marauder]

Ross, he goes for BIG nipples.... just look at his girls!

You’re a bad bad man.




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[Marauder]

Marauder, if you PM me your address I will send you my pressure pot and you can use it until you’re finished.  Mine has a clear hose. I’m not sure if it’s sized to your nipple we’re not.  If you get the right hose diameter, it shouldn’t matter. You don’t need a mechanical connection to bleed brakes, it just needs to be an airtight friction fit.

Ross, thanks for the offer. I will be checking the brakes tonight to see if we are done bleeding. I’m hopeful that we are, if not, I will send you a PM.


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[Shadrach]

9 hours ago, orionflt said:

Ross, he goes for BIG nipples.... just look at his girls!

Like cheese running off a hot pizza...

[Yetti]

You are kicked out of the CB.  Those are plenty good fittings you left on the hoses.

[Marauder]

You are kicked out of the CB.  Those are plenty good fittings you left on the hoses.

Still have the hoses. Want me to clip the ends off and wrap them up for Christmas for you?


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[Yetti]

My Dad would say yes, but I am already dreading his garage clean out....   I donated my engine hose ends to the friendly A&P that helped me get going.

Edited December 18, 2018 by Yetti

[Ragsf15e]

After reading about your brake saga, I want to give my mechanic a hug.  He’s worked on them twice, repaired the parking brake valve and bled them several times.  Through it all, I’ve had decent (or better) brake pressure.  I’m gonna blame this hug on you because he looks like grizzly Adams and ain’t gonna like it.

[Marauder]

After reading about your brake saga, I want to give my mechanic a hug.  He’s worked on them twice, repaired the parking brake valve and bled them several times.  Through it all, I’ve had decent (or better) brake pressure.  I’m gonna blame this hug on you because he looks like grizzly Adams and ain’t gonna like it.

You should erect a statue in his honor just for squeezing himself under the panel to get to the parking brake.


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