AI needs overhaul, time to upgrade? Advice?

[bnicolette]

Hey Peter,

There is no doubt that you all have a quality product and I have heard great things about your customer service.  And your right, you're bound to experience some growing pains like everybody else.  Even companies such as Honeywell have issues with their products and how long have they been around????  We just upgraded our NZ2000 FMS's in our Falcon with new software to finally allow us to do LPV approaches, and during the test flight we found a MAJOR software issue that would flag both ADI's and render our steering commands useless in the event of a go-around.  Not a huge deal in Kansas, but a real big deal in Telluride!!  So, I can understand there will be issues.  And everybody that I have talked to that has Aspens said the response from the company is just outstanding!!

For me, being mission oriented and on a budget I can see possibly someday upgrading to the AI/HSI combo (just for fun), but with the invent of the iPad, I would be hard pressed to justify the other units?  $150 per year for plates/maps/weather/flight planning/etc all on a big screen with geo referencing.

Kudos to you on creating a great company and great product!!  Now.........reduce the price by about 5K so I can afford one!!!

[Piloto]

Peter

The Aspen concept of a direct replacement for the old gyros is a great idea. Many of these old gyros are getting to the point that is not worth repairing them. Peter, on your Mooney to what type of TCAS you have the Aspen display connected to?

José

  

 

[M016576]

Quote: allsmiles

It seems there are some assumptions made here that are not supported by the facts.  One is that the electric King HSI is very expensive to overhaul.  This is simply incorrect.  I think I was quoted around $1000 for the HSI when Iasked about the AI.  I think for both insteruments it was around $2K or a little over.   The other assumption that is being made is that the Aspen or G500 is somehow 'better" than the King HSI /AI and those "old" instruments are going to be worthless. This is also not correct in my opinion.   Is an older swiss timepiece worthless and is a battery operated digital watch better?  I guess one's perception is reality.  Personally I wouldn't dismiss these instruments as inferior.  In my panel they will be there for many years to come playing happily right next to my brand new GTN 750.  This gives me all the situational awareness I need.  Also ask anyone who has "upgraded" to the Aspen or the G500 about their experience.  Read some posts on the web.  I think for most it has not been as simple as just installing it.  There have been plenty of malfunctioning issues that frankly are a royal waste of time.  For that kind of money I would expect to fly away and be done.  Not have to go back and forth to correct things.  Just some thoughts.

[peter]

Quote: Piloto

Peter

The Aspen concept of a direct replacement for the old gyros is a great idea. Many of these old gyros are getting to the point that is not worth repairing them. Peter, on your Mooney to what type of TCAS you have the Aspen display connected to?

José

  

 

[KSMooniac]

Quote: allsmiles

Scott the cost of the three units as shown on Peter Lyon's post IS 25-30K.  We are not talking about one unit.  Also I think we can agree that the market is not a reflection of the quality of the instrument.  It is merely a reflection of applied marketing principles and their results. They need to create a "want"  so people will buy them!  Don Maxwell is right. People buy what they want not what they need.  

As I have said before.  If the airplane has a King KFC /KAP with HSI, such as in my case the KFC 150, it would be a downgrade path and an expensive one at that to swap these for Aspen and the like.  All that is needed is an overhaul of both AI and HSI if necessary for around $2200.  One can also be proactive and spend $300 to replace the vaccuum pump every other annual.  Also one can install a backup electric AI.  Grand total approx 3K.  How much was that Aspen again!!

 

[flight2000]

[PTK]

[flight2000]

Quote: allsmiles

This is not me throwing things out to support an argument. Anyone considering spending this kind of money would (should) do teir due diligence and find out.  Do your own research as I've done mine.  Spend some time and read.  It is out there.

And ugh, Brian, I do expect perfection yes I do.  Especially on a brand new fresh install! Don't you?!   As far as dealing with emergencies you are absolutely right we deal with it.  Anything can fail. That's why we retain our "old" instruments as trusty backups! Isn't that right? Or maybe we should install another "glass" i.e. Trilogy, to backup our current glass which we have no confidence in.  Right?  You sure you want to talk about foolish?!

[bnicolette]

Quote: KSMooniac

We were only talking about a single unit because the original poster was simply talking about his AI, not adding a full suite of instruments...geez.  A single Aspen PFD replacing a mechanical AI and HSI combo can offer equivalent or improved capability, improved lifespan and reliability, and reduced weight/improved useful load for a relatively modest cost.  If adding GPSS is under consideration, then it is really attractive...

[PTK]

Quote: flight2000

You still didn't answer the question.  How many units have failed and why?  Your argument on why someone shouldn't add glass is based on these numbers.  I can't find that data anywhere on the internet and I have done my due diligence when it comes to adding the Aspen unit or any avionics for that matter. Are there some failures, yes, but what was the cause?  How many are truly the fault of the Aspen unit and how many are the avionics shops installation problems.  To blame Aspen for those is simply not right, but the company still makes it right if something goes wrong.  Only Aspen knows for sure how many they've sold and had returned for whatever reason.

I would have done it during my last upgrade but decided that an autopilot with GPSS was the better choice this go around.  I will add the Aspen once I rebuild my upgrade budget.  I have confidence in the Aspen and Garmin G5/600 units.  Sorry that you don't.  I just don't plan on waiting forever for the next great thing to come out.  To each their own and no, I do not expect perfection because in my mind, it does not exist.

[danb35]

Quote: allsmiles

My point exactly.  Quitting in flight like this is unnacceptable!  I' sorry. I don't care if they swap it out for a new one or whatever they do after the fact. I don't want it to quit!!  Period.

[PTK]

I never said 100% reliability. You are saying that.  You guys debate this if you must but I'm going fllying!

[Magnum]

Quote: Bnicolette

Actually, he was answering my question about Peter's airplane that had three screens.  But still, nobody has said what a single unit replacing the AI and HSI would cost installed assuming you are replacing only a regular AI and directional gyro?

[Parker_Woodruff]

I'll chime in with real data from my flight experience.  Let me think of my instrument equipment failures in just under 900 hours of flying. These failures are from 3 Cessna 172s and 3 Mooneys M20C - M20J.  All had good maint history.

1. Electric turn coordinator while entering IMC after takeoff x 1

2. Vacuum based Attitude indicator total failure x 1

3. Vacuum based Attidude indicator caught starting to die in IMC x 1 and VMC x 1 - each time was leaning 10-15 degrees to the left or right.

4. Entire Vacuum system failure x 2 (read lost both AI and DG)

5. DG Failure x1

6. Failed Marker beacon panel (not a big deal)

Yes, that is 7 failures in the standard 6-pack and one failure on the audio panel.

 

G-500 Failures - 0

G-1000 Failures - 0

[flight2000]

Quote: allsmiles

I am not about to do your research for you. You can read just as I can.

[M016576]

Part of the capability piece for me is that you don't need the garmin G500, or Aspen evolution for that matter to fly IFR.  ultimately, the 10-25k that you sink into your PFD/MFD doesn't buy you a modifier for your flight plans.  You can fly the same instrument approaches with an Aspen evolution that you can with a NSD360A and a Century A/I.  in fact, the latest NTSB report on glass avionics in general aviation aircraft stated that you were more likely to be involved in a fatal accident if you were flying a glass cockpit aircraft (although this could be viewed from a couple different viewpoints- to include popular mission...).  When I read that report, my take on it is that pilots either lose SA due to information overload, aren't trained in proper flight procedures for using their own displays, or are taking on more risk than they should in a single engine light fixed wing aircraft.

Anyway, while the glass displays are nice- they are not required to fly IFR.  Nor would I say that you would be a fool to fly without one (I do it all the time).  Like Von Richthofen said.... it's the man in the box that matters... that's true in BFM/ACM and also IFR airways navigation and approaches...

Link to NTSB report... it's 80 pages but WORTH the read!

www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2010/SS1001.pdf 

-JoB

[Piloto]

Quote: danb35

[gsengle]

Thanks everyone, this has been an education!  I'm sure there is a special spot in heaven (or hell) for anyone who sets off a thread like this.  I suspect that our Mooney accident record is better than many other types is in large part the people who fly em.

So I've decided after all this to overhaul my King AI, and that the only near term upgrade I will make is a standby electric AI.  This is the least expensive path and maximizes my mission capability.  And besides, I really like the way the King units look and I like my instrument scan.

I'm no luddite, I'm a pretty young guy, and actually work in technology and software.  But sometimes if it ain't (too) broke, don't fix it.

Now, since the backup AI is just that a backup, can folks point me to what my best options are - i.e. cheapest.  Refurbished?  Model/Brand?  Best source?  I've never bought something like this before.

thanks!

Greg

[gsengle]

 

Or for the science geeks - this one seems reliable

http://einstein.stanford.edu/TECH/technology1.html

 

[bnicolette]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

I'll chime in with real data from my flight experience.  Let me think of my instrument equipment failures in just under 900 hours of flying.

Yes, that is 7 failures in the standard 6-pack and one failure on the audio panel.

[danb35]

Quote: allsmiles

I never said 100% reliability. You are saying that.  You guys debate this if you must but I'm going fllying!

[danb35]

Quote: Piloto

[mbmaksymdc10]

Quote: gsengle

Well, here is my panel.  ’96 Ovation.  At some point I'm planning to add GPSS and a backup AI, and then I think its perfect.  (you can’t see the Stormscope or Skywatch which are displayed on the 530, and I plan to get weather on my iPad with an ADS-B receiver)  I have the spot for the electric backup AI, and the GPSS doesn’t need much space.

But here is my dilemma.  I'm kinda old school, and like the way the AI/FD and HSI look, so wasn't planning on going to an Aspen, certainly not any time soon.  I have enough capability and I’m saving the money for an upcoming overhaul.  I figured I'd add the standby electric AI in the spot on the bottom left, and GPSS doesn't take much space.  (although I'm not sure which product to buy in either case - advice?)

But here is the problem.  My AI looks like it is in need of an overhaul.  $2,000.  GPSS, $2,000?  Backup AI, $2,000?  I'd solve for both the backup AI and the GPSS with the aspen.  Do I really want to do this?  My inclination is to repair the AI, and save up for the backup AI and then the GPSS over time.  Does the aspen work seamlessly with the king KFC-150 autopilot?

Thoughts?!

Greg

 

 

 

[PTK]

Quote: danb35

The complaint you've stated about Aspens is that they have failed, which is true.  So has (or will) everything else.  The problem is only if the Aspen devices have a significantly higher failure rate than other instruments, which neither you nor I know.  Unless you have some kind of data that suggests this to be the case, your posts on the subject amount to nothing more than empty hand-waving.

[PTK]

Quote: gsengle

Thanks everyone, this has been an education!  I'm sure there is a special spot in heaven (or hell) for anyone who sets off a thread like this.  I suspect that our Mooney accident record is better than many other types is in large part the people who fly em.

So I've decided after all this to overhaul my King AI, and that the only near term upgrade I will make is a standby electric AI.  This is the least expensive path and maximizes my mission capability.  And besides, I really like the way the King units look and I like my instrument scan.

I'm no luddite, I'm a pretty young guy, and actually work in technology and software.  But sometimes if it ain't (too) broke, don't fix it.

Now, since the backup AI is just that a backup, can folks point me to what my best options are - i.e. cheapest.  Refurbished?  Model/Brand?  Best source?  I've never bought something like this before.

thanks!

Greg