What placards are required for a '63 M20C?

[ragedracer1977]

I was reading the TCDS.  For a M20C in my serial # range, it says refer to Note 1, Note 5. Note 6, Note 7, Note 8, Note 9, Note 13 and Note 24.

Note 1:  Weight and balance info must be in plane.

Note 5:  Mark tachometer with a red arc between 2000-2250 RPM for Hartzell HC-C2YK props

Note 6:  Pitch setting note - applies to M20E and M20F

Note 7: Tachometer marking - applies to M20E and M20F only

Note 8: See aircraft W&B data for wheel locations

Note 9: 91/96 minimum grade aviation gasoline acceptable for M20C aircraft serial numbers 1940-3184

Note 13: Mooney owners manuals required for (and then a long list).

Note 24: Removal of vacuum system in certain instances.

So, starting with #1.  I have that in the plane.

#5: Tach is marked.

#6: Does not apply

#7: Does not apply

#8: States where to find the station for the weight of the wheels

#9: Placarded on the underside of the fuel doors

#13: A 1963 M20C is not on the list.  The list doesn't begin until 1967.

#24: Does not apply

So...  are the only placards required the fuel grade and tachometer marks?  Note 2 lists a bunch of required placards, but the TCDS for the M20C, under item 401 (a): FAA approved  Airplane flight manual for the serial number my plane falls into, does not reference Note 2.  Note 2 is not referenced until serial number 20-0010.  Am I reading correctly that none of the placards in Note 2 are required?

Edited June 10, 2017 by ragedracer1977

[carusoam]

Get a copy of the most recent POH.  That should have a section of all the limitation decals.

The tach limits will be specific to the prop and engine and airframe...?

Hope this helps... not sure on the C's POH from memory.  It is in the most modern POHs...

Best regards,

-a-

[ragedracer1977]

1963 Mooney does not, and never had, a POH

[jrwilson]

5 hours ago, carusoam said:

Get a copy of the most recent POH.  That should have a section of all the limitation decals.

The tach limits will be specific to the prop and engine and airframe...?

Hope this helps... not sure on the C's POH from memory.  It is in the most modern POHs...

Best regards,

-a-

 

Just now, ragedracer1977 said:

1963 Mooney does not, and never had, a POH

You know what he means....he's trying to help, no need to be picky on terminology... another idea; knots2u has an interior placard kit that might be useful...  but it might not be called an interior placard kit or they may have called it something else in 1963, so feel free to completely disregard this information...

[ragedracer1977]

I wasn't being snarky.  It literally had an 'owners manual' (which I have) and it basically says put fuel in and start 'er up!  

I can get a POH from a later manufacture date which lists placards, etc, but that doesn't answer the question, neither does the Knots2U deal.  

I want to know what placards are required.  A newer POH or a Placard kit won't tell me that, since they aren't specific to my year plane.

[jrwilson]

Just now, ragedracer1977 said:

I wasn't being snarky.  It literally had an 'owners manual' (which I have) and it basically says put fuel in and start 'er up!  

I can get a POH from a later manufacture date which lists placards, etc, but that doesn't answer the question, neither does the Knots2U deal.  

I want to know what placards are required.  A newer POH or a Placard kit won't tell me that, since they aren't specific to my year plane.

Well good luck to you

[cctsurf]

From my 1962 "FAA Approved" "AIRPLANE FLIGHT MANUAL" "Approved 20 October '61" on page 4 lists the following placards:  (Of course this could be different from your '63, but it should get you closer than the 1977 above)

(1) This Airplane Must Be Operated As A Normal Category Airplane In Compliance With The Approved Airplane Flight Manual.  All Acrobatics, Maneuvers, Including Spins, Are Prohibited.

(2) Maximum Speed, Landing Gear Extended -- 120 MPH

    Maximum Speed for Operation Of Landing Gear -- 120 MPH

(3) (On Storm Window)  Do Not Open Above 150 MPH

(4) Load In Accordance With Loading Schedule

    Maximum Baggage Limit -- 120 Pounds

(5) Cowl Flap -Pull To Open-Do Not Open Above 150 MPH

(6) In Case of Engine Fire Turn Cabin Heater OFF

(7) Pull To Retract Flaps

(8) Retract Flaps After Landing

(9)  WARNING:  Do Not Exceed 10 Pounds in This Compartment.  See Aircraft Loading Schedule Data for Baggage Compartment Allowable.

 

I would look in a similar place in your manuals.  If you find it different, I'd appreciate it if you would post it here for general knowledge.

[carusoam]

An interesting thing to do...

1) Get the owner's manual for the plane for its year of manufacture... this is a legal document to have on board, but the 60's document is missing the detail that comes in the later POHs...

2) Get the POH for your plane (all M20Cs) perform to the same laws of physics in the same manner.  What has changed is the amount of detail that came in the later production and editing of the POH.

Its not my advice, I called the factory when I needed a copy of a POH to go with a plane I bought.... I got to speak with the gentleman who performed the test flight and signed my log in 1965...

The date of the last POH for the M20C is dated 1977. 

As PIC, you want to know that the document matches the airframe.  Check all the major Part numbers to make sure they match...

PP thoughts only, not a POH expert.

Best regards,

-a-

 

[ragedracer1977]

1 hour ago, cctsurf said:

From my 1962 "FAA Approved" "AIRPLANE FLIGHT MANUAL" "Approved 20 October '61" on page 4 lists the following placards:  (Of course this could be different from your '63, but it should get you closer than the 1977 above)

(1) This Airplane Must Be Operated As A Normal Category Airplane In Compliance With The Approved Airplane Flight Manual.  All Acrobatics, Maneuvers, Including Spins, Are Prohibited.

(2) Maximum Speed, Landing Gear Extended -- 120 MPH

    Maximum Speed for Operation Of Landing Gear -- 120 MPH

(3) (On Storm Window)  Do Not Open Above 150 MPH

(4) Load In Accordance With Loading Schedule

    Maximum Baggage Limit -- 120 Pounds

(5) Cowl Flap -Pull To Open-Do Not Open Above 150 MPH

(6) In Case of Engine Fire Turn Cabin Heater OFF

(7) Pull To Retract Flaps

(8) Retract Flaps After Landing

(9)  WARNING:  Do Not Exceed 10 Pounds in This Compartment.  See Aircraft Loading Schedule Data for Baggage Compartment Allowable.

 

I would look in a similar place in your manuals.  If you find it different, I'd appreciate it if you would post it here for general knowledge.

The manual in my plane doesn't have any of that stuff.  I don't know if its original or what, it looks very old.  It just says "owners manual".  Maybe I don't even have the correct manual on board

[Hank]

At one time, there was both an Owners Manual and a Flight Manual. 

[ragedracer1977]

Mine looks like the downloadable PDF that is available here on mooney space, but it is an actual booklet

[ragedracer1977]

Just now, Hank said:

At one time, there was both an Owners Manual and a Flight Manual. 

So it may be that I'm missing the actual AFM?

[carusoam]

Raged,

See if you like this idea...

Call the factory and ask how you can get a copy of the owner's manual that was printed for the year of your plane, and a copy of a POH for the most recent year your plane was built.

If the factory isn't a call you want to place, consider talking with your local MSC...

If those documents don't cover it, the only other documents that exist are the parts manual and maintenance manuals.  Each are about 100 pages each.

POHs were not required until late 60s or early 70s.  The owner's manual has about 1/3 of the data you want.  The names of the pamphlets changed some over the years. Examples are posted on this site.

how does that sound?

Best regards,

-a-

[ragedracer1977]

I think that sounds great!  I have referenced the later manuals for performance data, my biggest concern is I plan on getting my instrument rating in this plane.  When it comes time, I want to make sure the DPE is happy.  

[carusoam]

Owner's manual for the year of your plane, for the Arow document requirement...

Most recent POH for performance data and weight and balance arms and things like that... 100 pages of actual data in place of about 30 pages, where half is congratulatory fluff for buying such a great plane... 

One day there will be a Mooney app that has all of this data in a usable format. Including density altitude with your take-off ground roll and distance to climb 50’ agl....

Engine out proCedures that urge landing straight ahead, because low and slow doesn't usually end well with a 180° turn...back to the runway...

Best regards,

-a-

[ragedracer1977]

On my PPL checkride, the DPE hammered placards, which is why I'm on a 'roll' about them.  

The student previous to me, he discontinued the checkride because there wasn't a "no smoking" placard.

[MB65E]

Find another DPE! 

63 was fairly early. My 65 has all of the above items except the cabin heat placard and flap retract placard. I'll research those on it and make one if necessary. Love this site!!!

-Matt

[carusoam]

Shopping DPEs seems to be ever present. Hiring/reminding the flight instructor and school to make sure the plane was ready for the test.

everbody has their name on the line... including the mechanic that is maintaining the plane....

The student pilot barely has the knowledge to look for these things.

As owner, you come up to speed slowly over time....

After a decade, you can re-write these books from memory... assuming your memory still works then....

Best regards,

-a-

[Guest]

8 hours ago, ragedracer1977 said:

I wasn't being snarky.  It literally had an 'owners manual' (which I have) and it basically says put fuel in and start 'er up!  

I can get a POH from a later manufacture date which lists placards, etc, but that doesn't answer the question, neither does the Knots2U deal.  

I want to know what placards are required.  A newer POH or a Placard kit won't tell me that, since they aren't specific to my year plane.

The current manual by what ever name people wish to call it is #1184.  Is this what you have?

Clarence

[Guest]

Here is the placards page from the IPC

[N201MKTurbo]

6 hours ago, ragedracer1977 said:

On my PPL checkride, the DPE hammered placards, which is why I'm on a 'roll' about them.  

The student previous to me, he discontinued the checkride because there wasn't a "no smoking" placard.

What a jerk..... And I'm being kind with my terminology.

[HRM]

Just musing on placards...

I thought the IA was supposed to check for those at annual.

I'm a fan of placards myself, and I have 'extra' ones; this fandom increases as I age.

Placards have three motivations: 1) Pilot/Pax safety, 2) Regulatory compliance and 3) Manufacturer CYA.

I try to keep everyone happy, but number one is foremost.

[Hank]

9 hours ago, ragedracer1977 said:

On my PPL checkride, the DPE hammered placards, which is why I'm on a 'roll' about them.  

The student previous to me, he discontinued the checkride because there wasn't a "no smoking" placard.

I've never seen any requirement from any manufacturer for a "No Smoking" placard. My Mooney has a factory-installed ashtray.

A student up for is PPL isn't going to know any better. Personally, I'd have a "discussion" with this DPE and the FSDO. And I wouldn't pay the SOB for whatever time I'd spent with him, either. If he had demanded cash up front, there's always small claims court after completing the checkride with someone else and chatting with the FSDO.

Edited June 11, 2017 by Hank

[Delta]

For M20C the following placards apply:  
Per TCDS 2A3, Page 52, NOTES APPLICABLE TO ALL MODELS, NOTE 2: Placards:
a.(3), a.(7), a.(8), b., c., and d.

[carusoam]

Picture a bunch of flight school attendees in a crowded room with no internet.... students and low time flight instructors....

The weather outside is terrible, the only thing they have to discuss is the latest story about the local DPE.

The no smoking story goes back to the 90's at least.

Like any GA related check ride... Expect to finish the ride, there may be some things that need to be redone. Collect them all first... then finish after remediation.

Get a recommendation for getting a good DPE that matches your style.  My DPE for the PPL was a WWII vet and heavy smoker.  .  

Everyone in the boiler room knew what he liked and didn't like. He was the most known of all the unknowns...

Best regards,

-a-

 

Edited June 11, 2017 by carusoam