Prebuy? MSC?

[highplains]

So I may be coming down to asking for a prebuy inspection.  I am not new to buying aircraft, but I've never purchased a Mooney.  Ordinarily, I'd never even consider having the normal shop take a look, or even talk to them much.  However, what if the normal shop is a MSC?  In reading Jimmy Garrison's pieces in the the MAPA Log, there seems to be a bit of a premium to the value if a MSC has been doing the maintenance.  With Cessna's nobody seems to place any premium whatsoever for a Cessna authorized shop showing up in the logs.  Of course, Cessna's are exceedingly simple to work on compared to Mooney's.  Not as many gotchas hiding.  

In any case, I have trouble making sense of things on this.  If the normal shop is a MSC, does it make sense to have someone else inspect their work?  I think maybe yes.  Too much money and time involved to not do it.  

 

JV 

[Cruiser]

Absolutely take it to a different MSC. There should be one within reasonable distance. The advantage is twofold. First a different set of eyes it looking at things and will find what the normal shop has already overlooked. Second, a MSC knows what to look for and will do a better job than a shop that is not Mooney knowledgeable.

[fantom]

......and will do it in less time without mucking things up.

[RonM2OC]

Usually a pre-buy is worth every penny. Some banks require it. We paid for several pre-buys which the IA pointed out some real problem areas which steered us away from buying these planes. On the last plane we bought, the pre-buy turned up a few problem areas that allowed us to bargin on the final price..

A pre-buy is not an annual (faster and less costly). A fresh annual may also turn up some additional expenses, like any annual can..

[sleepingsquirrel]

Hi Highplanes,

It's OK to do all these things and they probably all should be done. Remember to:

Trust YOUR instincts.

I've been all over this site and I'm glad I didn't know too much before I bought my "OLD" Mooney . If I knew then what I know now I'd still be a Cessna pilot!

Remember If you listen to me, your listening to someone trying to find a Lake amphibian. Have decided to KEEP the Mooney just can't get it on floats.

Sincerely, The links below should be helpful in finding some things  to ask. 

 

 

 http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAD.nsf/Frameset?OpenPage

 

http://www.mooney.com/servicepdf/2114.html

[KSMooniac]

Not all MSCs are equal in skill or reputation.  If the plane were maintained by an MSC on a very short list of my favorites, I wouldn't have any trouble trusting their work.  If not, I would take it to one on my short list for a pre-buy.

[DrBill]

I am looking at buying a 65 E model . The owner and broker are reluctant on me using an MSC for prebuy due to the aircraft age saying they will keep looking until  they find enough problems that match the worth of the a/c.

Does anyone else feel this way ?  In a way, I understand, they will look at all sorts of stuff but then again, that's what I want, isn't it ?

They suggest an indepedant mechanic who knows Mooneys.  Any recommendations in the North Carolina area ?

I could have my A&P do it, who will be servicing the plane for me, he already does 3 other Mooneys but the wife is kind of insisting on the MSC.

I appreciate all comments as I told the broker I'd call him back tomorrow morning...

Bill

Mint Hill NC

 

[jax88]

Don't you want to know EVERYTHING that could and/or should be corrected?  You always have the option of not correcting any non-airworthiness issues found.  If the seller is implying that you should NOT know everything that could be corrected, I'd certainly be suspicious.

[John Pleisse]

The assumption is every pre-buy is a nit-pick to leverage price. Wish that weren't the case. That's an indictment of ownership.

If he never took it to a MSC (recently or is weary of expense) and you have no intention of taking it to a MSC, why ask? I don't mean to be coy, but this is an issue with MSC's in general. People want their cake and eat it too. On one hand they want the expertise when it will help them, but won't invest in the ongoing vitallity of their plane and the fleet in general. The four MSC's I have taken my plane to have tenured IA's or A&P's who have worked on Mooneys nearly exclusively for their entire careers. What's that worth? Cashflow is king and sometimes geography prohibits it, but when able, I suggest the MSC route.

I think Virigina aviation is back in biz....Lynchburg.

[lahso]

Bill - listen to your wife on this one. It's a good decision to let a reputable MSC do the pre-buy, even if you have to travel a bit to get that done. They know your type aircraft the best. Good luck, and I hope it all works out in your favor.

[Gone]

Quote: DrBill

I am looking at buying a 65 E model . The owner and broker are reluctant on me using an MSC for prebuy due to the aircraft age saying they will keep looking until  they find enough problems that match the worth of the a/c.

[carusoam]

MSC theory 101...

MSCs typically aim to keep your bird in the most top condition.  If a Mooney has not been to an MSC in a while, you can expect things that are acceptable to the masses of A&Ps may be questioned at the MSC.

If you like top condition, and intend to use the MSC route through ownership, take the plane there.  Or better, start with a plane that has a history of MSC visits.

There is nothing magic about this approach.  It seems you already know this.  Of course if you are buying the last Mooney M20TN, not much has worn out on it.  If it is a 1965 M20C, you might find some short cuts that have been maintained-in over the last 40+ years.

Pre-buy comes in two flavors.  Airworthiness and nice to have.  The MSC can readily point out both....

Still no magic involved, a mechanic that really knows mooneys and an owner who likes to take care of his bird can perform an MSC level inspection and perform as well as any plane that goes to MSCs every year.

Using the MSC for a PPI is the best way to protect yourself from purchasing something broken that you were not aware of.

Best regards,

-a-

[fantom]

Would you go to a podiatrist to have a heart checkup?

Listen to your wife!

[DaV8or]

Do the MSC if you can by all means. Most importantly, if at all possible, be there when the pre buy is done. This way they can show you all the things they find while it's open and you can decide how critical each item is. They will turn up a list, but much of it will be optional and/or just cautionary. You definitly want to know as much as you can before you buy. Don't be discouraged if the first plane you pre-buy isn't "the one". It took me two tries, some here many more than that.

Good luck!

[Jeff_S]

My opinion is somewhat controversial on this. I think the quality and reputation of the mechanic is more critical than the mere fact that it is an MSC. I know there are plenty of top-notch MSCs, and some that are less-so. As near as I can tell looking through my logs, my plane has never been to an MSC, but the shops it has been to have always meticulously documented their work and the logs are complete and clean. That said, if you have a choice between a good MSC and a good non-MSC mechanic nearby, for a plane of this vintage, why not go the MSC route? It can't hurt, and can only help.

[DrBill]

Thanks to all who replied prompty.  It really gave me some ammunition in discussing this with my co-owners.

Last night I went over to my airport and met the other two Mooney owners (both planes '65 vintage) who have planes there.  We talked about this issue. Neither owner had his prebuy at an MSC.  Both owners understood the owners reluctance and in fact they too were concerned that they did not have enough information about that particular MSC and the possibility of the MSC grounding the aircraft at a significant cost due to "interpretation".  Then the airport manager came over and he agreed with the seller. He  had a Piper Seneca that he took to a PSC for a prebuy.  They found 4 pages of squaks.  After 30 days of picture exchanges all but 10 were determined to be "in error". Only after he said he would nullify the deal and take the airplane back did the PSC agree that not all were "airworthy" issues.

Unfortunately, the three pilots agreed, that in this economy, the MSCs are used to working on 200K+ aircraft and a $5k bill is 2.5% and tolerable to most owners and really helps their bottom line.  To a 50K aricraft ,the same $5k bill is 10% and not something to be considered lightly.  The equivalent bill for the $50K AC is $1250. 

They all recommended our local A&P who works on their AC and will work on mine (and has when I had my Beech).

So,I'm making my list of things for him to check in addition to what he normally does.

Thanks again for everything and I'll let y'all know what happens next week. 

[danb35]

So the sellers would prefer that you take the plane to a mechanic who is not an expert with that make and model, so that the non-expert won't find as many issues with the plane as an expert would.  And you're OK with that.  Do I have that right?  Seems to me that you, as a buyer, would want to find as many issues as possible before a purchase, rather than have them show up later.

BTW, no mechanic has the authority to ground an airplane; only an FAA inspector can do that.  No matter what shop does the pre-buy, your agreement with them should be that their job is to inspect, note any discrepancies, and then put the plane back together.

[carusoam]

Dr. Bill,

Since Dan Brown has pointed out the first elephant in the room...  The second one looks like this....

Economics of the PPI as a % of acquisition cost is not sensible.

The cost to fix an old low cost plane is about the same to fix a brand new plane.  In the extreme case, an accident in an old plane is just as costly as one in a new plane.

The cost of the PPI is not a linear relation to the asking price of the plane but more directly related to the value of what travels in the plane.

If it is broken, worn, leaking or oxidized, it can be expensive to fix.  A good PPI will protect you financially by informing you prior to purchase.   A PPI is not an annual (it could be if you want it to).

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Jerry 5TJ]

Quote: carusoam

Economics of the PPI as a % of acquisition cost is not sensible.

The cost to fix an old low cost plane is about the same to fix a brand new plane.  In the extreme case, an accident in an old plane is just as costly as one in a new plane.

The cost of the PPI is not a linear relation to the asking price of the plane but more directly related to the value of what travels in the plane.

If it is broken, worn, leaking or oxidized, it can be expensive to fix.  A good PPI will protect you financially by informing you prior to purchase.   A PPI is not an annual (it could be if you want it to).

[fantom]

"Smoke gets in your eyes", and sometimes in other parts of your body if you're not careful.

Good luck for I suspect you'll really need some!

[DaV8or]

I don't get this idea that the MSC will find too much wrong with the plane and so go with somebody that will over look defects? No MSC will ground a plane. If they feel it is a serious safety hazard and the owner insists on flying it, they may report it to the FSDO, but I think this almost never happens. If the plane is that bad, you don't want it anyways.

What happens is, if airworthy issues arise, you and the owner are made aware of it and you decide what to do. If you don't want the plane, the owner flies off in it. AFAIK, there are no logbook entries for a PPI, only if an actual repair is done. So, the plane is put back together and it is as if nothing ever happened. This is exactly what happened with my first PPI. The plane was delivered to SWTA at my request and during the inspection, a crack in the crankcase was discovered. This was an airworthiness issue. The owner and I couldn't come to a deal that worked for us both, so I passed on the plane and the owner flew it home to be repaired later at his home field. Russell at SWTA fully understood both of our positions and made no attempt what so ever to impound or ground the plane.

If you really want to stick with the local A&P, then at least have him do some research on Mooneys and their common failure points. Maybe have him speak with folks like Don Maxwell or Paul Lowen about what to look for. What you are most concerned about with the PPI is not the common parts like engine, prop and avionics, it's all Mooney airframe specifics that are more troubling.

[DrBill]

I had the prebuy done my my local A&P.  He and his staff took everything out.  I asked that they do the 208B- SB and the fuel tank one (223?).. All the plates were removed, belly pan removed, all interior and sidepanels.  It was ugly.  Naked as a j bird. THe only thing he found was leaking fuel senders.  Borscope and engine test. AOK.  He was quite impressed with the plane. He compared it to two other Mooneys on the field and this had less problems than any of them.  Checked brakes, wheel bearings.  We swung the gear. I got in and did it several times as I've never done it  before. Checked all the avionics, lights (strobes) etc. Other than the fuel leaks everything was AOK so it's now mine.  The mech continued and I now have a new annual.

I'll fly it Sunday for the first time (other than with the previous owner) with an instructor.

Need 10 hrs of dual then 10 solo before pass.  Guess I'll be busy then next few weeks.

Bill

 

[Jeff_S]

Amazing. You mean a non MSC-rated A/P can actually be competent? Will wonders never cease!

Seriously though, glad to see things have worked out and you're on your way.

[DaV8or]

Quote: DrBill

I had the prebuy done my my local A&P.  He and his staff took everything out.  I asked that they do the 208B- SB and the fuel tank one (223?).. All the plates were removed, belly pan removed, all interior and sidepanels.  It was ugly.  Naked as a j bird. THe only thing he found was leaking fuel senders.  Borscope and engine test. AOK.  He was quite impressed with the plane. He compared it to two other Mooneys on the field and this had less problems than any of them.  Checked brakes, wheel bearings.  We swung the gear. I got in and did it several times as I've never done it  before. Checked all the avionics, lights (strobes) etc. Other than the fuel leaks everything was AOK so it's now mine.  The mech continued and I now have a new annual.

I'll fly it Sunday for the first time (other than with the previous owner) with an instructor.

Need 10 hrs of dual then 10 solo before pass.  Guess I'll be busy then next few weeks.

Bill

 

[DrBill]

Pics are now posted.. Not great (in Hangar) but I'll get better ones outside this weekend.

DrBill  (Engineering Dr, Not MEDICAL)