L3/Lynx and Foreflight working together now

[Marauder]

Just now, Bob_Belville said:

Okay. Have any idea why ALT (or delta ALT) was delayed, perhaps by only 30 seconds?

Probably due to a few things. If his transponder was not active until his roll (my GTX-327 doesn't activate until I am on the roll), his transponder antenna could have been blocked and/or your GDL-88 was blocked (I don't think you have diversity on your unit, do you?).

[Bob_Belville]

Just now, Marauder said:

Probably due to a few things. If his transponder was not active until his roll (my GTX-327 doesn't activate until I am on the roll), his transponder antenna could have been blocked and/or your GDL-88 was blocked (I don't think you have diversity on your unit, do you?).

No, I have only one antenna - on the belly.

[Marauder]

Just now, Bob_Belville said:

No, I have only one antenna - on the belly.

I suspect either your receiving or his transmitting antenna were probably blocked part of the time. That would be my guess. There is a guy on my field who has an ADS-B compliant plane. I remember coming in for a landing once and I picked him up with my GDL-39 although I was only a few hundred feet off of the ground. It actually scared me when the traffic alert came up since I thought he was on the runway not next to it.

[JKeeth]

On ‎8‎/‎26‎/‎2016 at 9:02 PM, gsengle said:

 

Any Lynx combo Foreflight users seen a situation where Foreflight isn't picking up "own ship" intermittently? Only on iPad not on Linx screen...

 

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Sorry for the delay responding!

I think you meant to say why "is" ForeFlight picking up own-ship intermittently, as your picture is showing.

Before I answer that question, there's a discrepancy with the way FF displays the relative altitude of the traffic targets versus what is displayed on the NGT-9000 traffic display, which you may have already noticed. The reason for this is due to the fact that FF determines relative altitude of traffic targets based on GPS altitude, while the NGT-9000 outputs both GPS altitude and uncorrected baro pressure altitude. When FF receives GPS altitude and baro pressure altitude from the NGT-9000, it will subtract GPS altitude from baro pressure altitude to determine the relative altitude for each target. For example, an aircraft flying at 5,000ft MSL GPS altitude could have an uncorrected baro pressure altitude of 4,500. If two aircraft are co-altitude at this point, the NGT-9000 would display a +0 altitude difference, while FF will display a "-5" for the 4,500ft baro pressure altitude intruder compared to the ownship GPS altitude of 5,000ft. This is described on page 208 of the ForeFlight Mobile Pilot's Guide.

I think, but not certain, that the reason FF is intermittently displaying your own-ship is because of this pressure altitude minus GPS altitude discrepancy. The app thinks there is a target below your own aircraft because it has computed a relative altitude -500ft for your aircraft, which is the difference between baro pressure altitude and GPS altitude. I can't say for sure if this is the case, but what you are seeing has been reported by other Lynx and ForeFlight users as well in the past couple of weeks.

FYI...ForeFlight is aware of these issues and they are actively working on a solution.

Hope this helps!

Jim Keeth

L-3 Aviation Products

[gsengle]

What would be helpful is to understand the algorithm for own ship detection, and why Lynx even outputs own ship on the data feed to Foreflight in the first place.... The Lynx display isn't confused

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[mike_elliott]

1 minute ago, JKeeth said:

Sorry for the delay responding!

I think you meant to say why "is" ForeFlight picking up own-ship intermittently, as your picture is showing.

Before I answer that question, there's a discrepancy with the way FF displays the relative altitude of the traffic targets versus what is displayed on the NGT-9000 traffic display, which you may have already noticed. The reason for this is due to the fact that FF determines relative altitude of traffic targets based on GPS altitude, while the NGT-9000 outputs both GPS altitude and uncorrected baro pressure altitude. When FF receives GPS altitude and baro pressure altitude from the NGT-9000, it will subtract GPS altitude from baro pressure altitude to determine the relative altitude for each target. For example, an aircraft flying at 5,000ft MSL GPS altitude could have an uncorrected baro pressure altitude of 4,500. If two aircraft are co-altitude at this point, the NGT-9000 would display a +0 altitude difference, while FF will display a "-5" for the 4,500ft baro pressure altitude intruder compared to the ownship GPS altitude of 5,000ft. This is described on page 208 of the ForeFlight Mobile Pilot's Guide.

I think, but not certain, that the reason FF is intermittently displaying your own-ship is because of this pressure altitude minus GPS altitude discrepancy. The app thinks there is a target below your own aircraft because it has computed a relative altitude -500ft for your aircraft, which is the difference between baro pressure altitude and GPS altitude. I can't say for sure if this is the case, but what you are seeing has been reported by other Lynx and ForeFlight users as well in the past couple of weeks.

FYI...ForeFlight is aware of these issues and they are actively working on a solution.

Hope this helps!

Jim Keeth

L-3 Aviation Products

Thanks Jim, I had not noticed this with FlyQ and my Lynx NGT9000. And while I have your attention, how about adding a D-A converter to the ESI 500 so It can drive a King Autopilot? I betcha you'll sell a lot of them. If you did, we can get rid of these repair every 500 hour KI256's..

[StevenL757]

Jim - I was ready to call you guys about this Re: my NGT-9000+, so really appreciate the context.  This makes sense, so will look to see when FF can issue a patch/revision to correct.  Aside from that...LOVE the 9000+   :-)

Regards

Steve

[gsengle]

I'll post some other screen shots later today that add some other questions!

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[gsengle]

One more question for Foreflight. I understand that suppressing a TIS-B broadcast to say a stratus receiver would be a tougher scenario, but in this photo the tail number is being correctly uplinked and both Lynx and Foreflight know my tail number, so this should be pretty simple on both ends...

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[carqwik]

+1 to make it compatible with King A/Ps... 

Could it then be certified now as a primary instrument too? 

Then, make a second box that can be used as an HSI....or a combo box with both (sort of a like Aspen)...

[gsengle]

I'm guessing certifying together with an autopilot / airframe combination is a more significant certification project. That said, yes please!

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[JKeeth]

I'm not sure what criteria FF is using to prevent the display of own-ship, but obviously it is using more than just tail number. I agree that an app should be able to ignore and not display a target if its tail number matches your own tail number. The NGT-9000 will ignore and not display a target if that targets tail number matches your tail number, among some other obscure requirements it uses to prevent the display of own-ship.

1 hour ago, StevenL757 said:

Jim - I was ready to call you guys about this Re: my NGT-9000+, so really appreciate the context.  This makes sense, so will look to see when FF can issue a patch/revision to correct.  Aside from that...LOVE the 9000+   :-)

Regards

Steve

Very happy to hear that Steve! Thanks for the PIREP!

1 hour ago, mike_elliott said:

Thanks Jim, I had not noticed this with FlyQ and my Lynx NGT9000. And while I have your attention, how about adding a D-A converter to the ESI 500 so It can drive a King Autopilot? I betcha you'll sell a lot of them. If you did, we can get rid of these repair every 500 hour KI256's..

We also have not seen this issue with other apps like WingX, FlyQ, and FltPlan GO, only FF so far.

Yes, many people have asked about autopilot outputs from the ESI-500. The ESI-500 does have an ARINC 429 output and will output pitch and roll digital data, but we don't have any plans to make a converter that can convert those digital signals into analog signals for autopilot computers. I think if we did go that route then the price of the unit wouldn't be much different than an Aspen EFD, and at that point the Aspen unit would provide more "bang for the buck".

40 minutes ago, carqwik said:

Could it then be certified now as a primary instrument too? 

The ESI-500 can definitely be approved to be used as a primary AI. While we market the ESI-500 as a standby, and our STC gives installers approval to install the ESI-500 as a backup system to primary systems (Aspen, Garmin, etc.), there is nothing stopping a dealer from installing and getting approval to install the ESI-500 as a primary AI. The TSOs, MOPS, DOs, etc., do not differentiate between primary and standby. The TSO approvals for the ESI-500 are the same TSOs approvals for primary systems such as the Garmin G500.

[gsengle]

Yes but the aspen isn't certified as a primary. All us folks with KI-256 units are stuck until maybe King finally comes out with the KI-300.... And we all cross our fingers we don't need the gyros overhauled first. Aspen doesn't help us at all...

And the 300 won't do any more than the 356 did, and all for over 5k. Seems like a market opportunity.

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[mike_elliott]

57 minutes ago, JKeeth said:

I think if we did go that route then the price of the unit wouldn't be much different than an Aspen EFD, and at that point the Aspen unit would provide more "bang for the buck".

 

1 hour ago, JKeeth said:

Yes, many people have asked about autopilot outputs from the ESI-500. The ESI-500 does have an ARINC 429 output and will output pitch and roll digital data, but we don't have any plans to make a converter that can convert those digital signals into analog signals for autopilot computers.

There is a huge market here for L3, IMO, and with L3's clout and expertise, A simple D/A converter to interface between the KAP and ESI for reasonable cost would increase ESI 500 sales substantially. Aspen has a converter to interface with the PFD1000, but still needs a "primary", why not drive it off the ESI, or even fail over switching between the 2? Mr. Ladigo, help me out here...tell engineering you can sell these!

[Marauder]

Yes but the aspen isn't certified as a primary. All us folks with KI-256 units are stuck until maybe King finally comes out with the KI-300.... And we all cross our fingers we don't need the gyros overhauled first. Aspen doesn't help us at all...

And the 300 won't do any more than the 356 did, and all for over 5k. Seems like a market opportunity.

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I think Jim is right about the cost of the certification. By the time they get it approved for the type certificate, the cost would parallel an Aspen.

I'm confused by the "stuck" comment. If you are looking for an AI only solution, the KI-300 may be the only solution on the horizon as an electronic replacement. At $5 AMU for an AI only solution, I would probably go for an Aspen with an EA-100 and take advantage of the additional benefits it has to offer (GPSS, HSI, etc.).

https://www.aspenavionics.com/products/ea100-adapter-for-autopilots

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[gsengle]

The cost of an Aspen plus adapter and then still having to buy a "primary" AI to set next to it means there is probably an opening for a simpler/less costly solution...

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[StevenL757]

Greg...I'll talk you into a GTN750, a G500, and an ESI-500 yet... 

Islip Avionics and I will make it our mission.  :-)

"Evil Wicked Steve"

[mike_elliott]

Evil wicked Steve, what product of Garmins drive the King AP? Is the Digital to Analog capability box stock with the G500 or is there an add on "box"? If it is an add on, how much did the good people at Garmin ask for their magical thingamajig? Aspen wants 2500 for their brand of magic

If L3 could do one of these say for 1500, I could see a LOT of ESI's going in, KI256's showing up on Ebay, or added to Peters collection of fine swiss watches..

[StevenL757]

2 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

Evil wicked Steve, what product of Garmins drive the King AP? Is the Digital to Analog capability box stock with the G500 or is there an add on "box"? If it is an add on, how much did the good people at Garmin ask for their magical thingamajig? Aspen wants 2500 for their brand of magic

If L3 could do one of these say for 1500, I could see a LOT of ESI's going in, KI256's showing up on Ebay, or added to Peters collection of fine swiss watches..

Right now, the only Garmin D-A converters I'm aware of that drive King A/Ps (Trek - insert guidance and wisdom here) are the GAD43 and GAD43E (which I have); both available as options for the G500.  The former goes for ~$2.7k, the latter ~$4.3k.

Agree completely that if something similar comes available for the ESI-500, it would change a lot of panel-makeover strategies.  Albeit, given the "basic" cost of the Genesis (ESI-500) at around $5500, and fully-loaded (NAV/GPS, Syn. Vis., and MAG500 dedicated heading source) around $8600, the functionality (both with a 1+ hour battery backup) can't be beat.  Again, it's like having a mini G500 sitting next to you.

After just this short time flying with the thing, I'm flabbergasted at how functional, accurate, easy-to-read, and generally robust it is overall.  I know many will look at the prices and cringe, but for me, the bang for the buck is certainly there.  It's an airline/corporate jet-quality display at an affordable price.

[jhbehrens]

Reviving this old thread as I am planning to install a Lynx NGT-9000+ and in lieu of a Garmin 330 mode S transponder and a skywatch 497.

Does the Lynx also pass active traffic to Foreflight or just the ADS-B traffic?

 

Jorgen

[JKeeth]

On 8/24/2018 at 8:07 AM, jhbehrens said:

Reviving this old thread as I am planning to install a Lynx NGT-9000+ and in lieu of a Garmin 330 mode S transponder and a skywatch 497.

Does the Lynx also pass active traffic to Foreflight or just the ADS-B traffic?

 

Jorgen

Yes the Lynx NGT-9000+ does send the active traffic targets out on the wifi to be displayed on the apps. However, last I checked, which was a little over a year ago, ForeFlight only displayed the ADS-B targets and not the active traffic targets. Don't know why that is, as most of the others apps have no problem displaying both ADS-B targets and active traffic targets from the NGT-9000+.

I would recommend you contact ForeFlight and ask if their app will display the active traffic targets (TAS/TCAS) from the NGT-9000+. My information is dated, so it's possible ForeFlight has finally implemented this in a recent update to the app.

Hope this helps!

Jim

[Davarron]

On 8/24/2018 at 8:07 AM, jhbehrens said:

Reviving this old thread as I am planning to install a Lynx NGT-9000+ and in lieu of a Garmin 330 mode S transponder and a skywatch 497.

Does the Lynx also pass active traffic to Foreflight or just the ADS-B traffic?

 

Jorgen

I have the NGT 9000+ and no, ForeFlight will not show the active traffic targets. Only ADS-B is displayed.