Does size matter

[N3417X]

I have a full 201 conversion on my E model and was wondering if the E model was faster because the wings are 4 inches shorter a side and it's almost two feet shorter in length..

thanks, Dennis Angel

[Cruiser]

don't know about size but weight matters.

A standard 201 is 2740#

[Hank]

Same horsepower, less weight, makes a faster plane. The wingtips added onto Js are cosmetic only; I have them in my C. They do cover the wingtip navigation lights, so maybe drag is very slightly reduced.

[N3417X]

I forgot about the E model weighs less I think 300lbs

[Hank]

J = 2740 lb

E = 2575 lb,, 165 lb lighter (almost a whole FAA passenger lighter at gross).

Wing loading is 12.88 lb/hp E versus 13.7 lb/hp for the J.

[N3417X]

Do you think it will out run a j model?

[1524J]

I have a 201 conversion on my C model to include the landing gear and it's fast, but not faster than a J. I'll get 150 knots during a four way test at 7500', 2400 rpm, throttle wide open. 

[carusoam]

Why?

find the long running thread of a particular F being faster than a J...

It was kind of fun to watch.

But, realistically there are some pretty fast Mooneys out there that may fly by both the E and the J.

If you really want to play that game find the missile...  A J with 300hp and a K's cowling, extended fuel tanks and room for four full sized adults.

Then there is the trade-off of useful load, or leg room.

The best Mooney to have is the one you own.

The next best Mooney to have is the one you can afford in retirement years.

All Mooneys are fast, some are just faster than others, some can take big sized family along for a long distance.

Adding 10% more HP is really cool for improved T/O runs and nice climb rates.

Going with a carbed 180hp Mooney gets you Mooney speeds at an entry level price.

So one question, why?

Best regards,

-a-

[1524J]

Dang Anthony, don't bring up "afford". When my kids were young we raced motocross. ALOT. I had a dad who was new to the sport come over to our trailer and ask me for the best advice I could give. I told him to quit! Quit now! Sometimes I think that's the best advice I could ever give someone about owning an airplane.  I did love the life of being on the road with my kids.

[Ned Gravel]

22 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Why?

find the long running thread of a particular F being faster than a J...

It was kind of fun to watch.

But, realistically there are some pretty fast Mooneys out there that may fly by both the E and the J.

If you really want to play that game find the missile...  A J with 300hp and a K's cowling, extended fuel tanks and room for four full sized adults.

Then there is the trade-off of useful load, or leg room.

The best Mooney to have is the one you own.

The next best Mooney to have is the one you can afford in retirement years.

All Mooneys are fast, some are just faster than others, some can take big sized family along for a long distance.

Adding 10% more HP is really cool for improved T/O runs and nice climb rates.

Going with a carbed 180hp Mooney gets you Mooney speeds at an entry level price.

So one question, why?

Best regards,

-a-

I own an E and I would love to be able to trick it out as a "J" killer.  Less weight, with the correction of the things that induce too much drag on the '65 airframe.  I remember taking off from Coleman Young (Detroit municipal) headed East when ATC tells me to watch for another Mooney at 9:00 (1 mile) and climbing at about 50 knots faster than me.  

Wow!!  I was climbing at 120 mph.  So he was already doing close to 160 knots in the climb.  Some Mooney's are more equal than others.

 

 

[carusoam]

Take a look at some of the aero improvements over the years.  The O has really closed all of the gaps and hid most of the antennae Or made them as slick as possible.  The J was a leap forwards in aerodynamics.  The O went another step forwards...

Going to a two blade antenna might be helpful for top speed, but the 310hp Top prop is best delivered through a three blade device.

max speed would include putting a TN system on the E.  This way there is more power available at flight levels with less dense air... But at the cost of cylinder wear.

Best regards,

-a-

[WardHolbrook]

I've never heard anyone complain about their aircraft being too big, having too much power or being too fast.

[carusoam]

Until...

1) the cognitive speeds slow too much... (Avoid getting old before your time, hit the gym often)

2) the price of gas has gone too high... $6/gal is a lot!

3) The second kid starts looking at college...

there is no turbine in my future... (And I'm OK with that, now) 

Best regards,

-a-

[Marauder]

There are a number of factors that come into play that will determine if a particular plane will be faster. Based on the content I have been reading about the work jetdriven has been doing on his plane, there are a number of improvements that can be made. If you look what Mooney did to create the J you will see that even early models are slower than late models J. It is just a series of small parasitic drag improvements that help nudge a knot or two out.

Anthony mentioned the fast F thread. That would be me. 201er and I have been having an ongoing debate why my F is in the same speed range as his 78 J. I have some speed mods but nothing that should make me as fast as his J. Personally, I think he is slower than he should be because he usually carries more fuel than me (he has long range tanks). But a lot of other factors come into play. Like whether your plane is rigged correctly, if you have the fixed step in place, the age/health of your engine, etc. You can spend a fortune to buy all the speed mods and erase all the gain by a dragging a gear in the breeze.

I also had a chance to show a 2 knot gain with a little manual rudder trim. My F will yaw slightly less than 1/2 ball out at speeds above the 150 KTAS range. When I flew to the Mooney fly-in on Sunday, I had one of those rare no wind, no bump days at the altitude I filed. My TAS showed 154 knots. By stepping on the left rudder to center the ball, I saw a 2 knot improvement and lost it when I took my foot off the rudder. Norm Smith was right. I do need the Aero Trim!

So, to answer your question, it depends!

Bob Belville has an E with I believe the ARI cowl, 201 windshield and other speed mods. His E is certainly faster than early model Js but I don't think he has cracked the 160 KTAS mark like the later Js have.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Shadrach]

 

6 hours ago, Cruiser said:

don't know about size but weight matters.

A standard 201 is 2740#

 

6 hours ago, Hank said:

Same horsepower, less weight, makes a faster plane. The wingtips added onto Js are cosmetic only; I have them in my C. They do cover the wingtip navigation lights, so maybe drag is very slightly reduced.

 

6 hours ago, N3417X said:

I forgot about the E model weighs less I think 300lbs

Weight does matter, but let's not equate load carrying capability with weight. My F model weighs 1681lbs dry and I'd bet that is within 50lbs of most E models plus or minus (it's lighter than some). MGW is 165lbs more at 2740, but that does not mean a thing unless the plane is at MGW.  The J model did get a bit piggy later in its life. I've seen J models with empty weights over 2000lbs.

You have to compare individual planes as the fleet varies so much. At the same weight with well installed mods, I would give the almost imperceptible edge to a modified E model.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Ned Gravel said:

I own an E and I would love to be able to trick it out as a "J" killer.  Less weight, with the correction of the things that induce too much drag on the '65 airframe.  I remember taking off from Coleman Young (Detroit municipal) headed East when ATC tells me to watch for another Mooney at 9:00 (1 mile) and climbing at about 50 knots faster than me.  

Wow!!  I was climbing at 120 mph.  So he was already doing close to 160 knots in the climb.  Some Mooney's are more equal than others.

 

 

Ned,

I'll get one of these ready for you.

Clarence 

[orionflt]

yea, but if you add that you will also have to add 3 feet to the tail to keep it in balance.

Brian

[Ned Gravel]

Clarence, Clarence, Clarence 

Less weight!!!   Not twice as much weight on my nose gear.     And look how much time yours spends in the shop  

BTW:  You now back from SnF?  

[Bob_Belville]

19 hours ago, Marauder said:

 

Bob Belville has an E with I believe the ARI cowl, 201 windshield and other speed mods. His E is certainly faster than early model Js but I don't think he has cracked the 160 KTAS mark like the later Js have.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Yup.  158 KTAS @ 70% power is the best I've documented - see pic. Caveats: To whatever the accuracy of my ASI is which is used by the Aspen to calculate TAS. And that was not at 2575 MGW, probably closer to 2300#. OTOH, I could have gone to 2700 RPM which would have been close to 5% more power and might have gotten 2 kts. I've never done a sea level balls to the wall speed check. 

I have a lot of the thingies that help power and aerodynamics - RAM air, PFS tuned exhaust, ARI cowl (until David gives us his great looking cowl), 201 windshield, flap gap and other seals, retracting step... Have not replaced any antennae or enclosed wing tips.

Chris, I sometimes rest my foot on the right rudder pedal to center ball at cruise. You might be able to detect a slight "ball" deflection in the pic. When I first bought the plane we worked on rudder trim and tweaked the ailerons.

All said, 

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Ned Gravel said:

Clarence, Clarence, Clarence 

Less weight!!!   Not twice as much weight on my nose gear.     And look how much time yours spends in the shop  

BTW:  You now back from SnF?  

If you can't go on a diet, add more power.  

Returned from Florida on Sunday, 5:03 southbound, 5:30 northbound in Stew's PA30.

Clarence