N601RX Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 Did you try slowly sweeping the mixture from full rich to cutoff? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnisley Posted August 31, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 Did you try slowly sweeping the mixture from full rich to cutoff? Yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertGary1 Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 It's. It showing fuel flow so it's hard to tell if it was servo related. If it was just a turbo failure it would normally have just be a partial failure (ie you should have had enough power to continue level flight below the FL's). -Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 It's. It showing fuel flow so it's hard to tell if it was servo related. If it was just a turbo failure it would normally have just be a partial failure (ie you should have had enough power to continue level flight below the FL's). -Robert I think it was proposed earlier that he may have experienced a turbo failure causing a blockage in the exhaust flow. That would make sense from a restriction of exhaust flow and why lower power settings may not be as affected. Really interested in hearing what happened. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_elliott Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 It's. It showing fuel flow so it's hard to tell if it was servo related. If it was just a turbo failure it would normally have just be a partial failure (ie you should have had enough power to continue level flight below the FL's). -Robert I didn't see where its showing fuel flow, Robert, maybe I am missing something. The way all 4 EGT's drop dramatically does lend one to suspect a servo or distribution spider. It is either 1) spark (mag check good, 2 mags highly unlikely) 2) air (seems to be getting what it needs, but who knows, maybe an area to look at or 3) fuel (yep, I would start here personally) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 My first major engine malfunction was in my first E model on takeoff through 500 feet. The engine would make very limited power in the air, enough to extend my glide to turn back to the airport for a landing on the cross runway. On the ground it idled well and would make more power than in the air. It turned out to be the fuel injection servo. Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertGary1 Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 I didn't see where its showing fuel flow, Robert, maybe I am missing something. The way all 4 EGT's drop dramatically does lend one to suspect a servo or distribution spider. It is either 1) spark (mag check good, 2 mags highly unlikely) 2) air (seems to be getting what it needs, but who knows, maybe an area to look at or 3) fuel (yep, I would start here personally) Yes, too much iPhone autocorrect going on. I meant to say that I didn't see fuel flow in the data. The engine failures I had that was caused by the servor showed about 30 gal/hr of fuel flow at the time. -Robert 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnisley Posted August 31, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 One important detail I forgot to mention in my first post was the fact that I had just switched tanks when things went south, I immediately switched to the original tank when it's started missing, but nothing changed, both tanks have plenty of fuel, 10+ and 15+. The monitor doesn't show fuel flow. The fuel servo and the distribution spider is on our list to check, the first order of business is to look at the air intake ducting, turbo etc Precision Airmotives has a troubleshooting guide for the RSA 5-AD1 fuel servo that gives a list of things to check. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_elliott Posted September 1, 2015 Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 One important detail I forgot to mention in my first post was the fact that I had just switched tanks when things went south, I immediately switched to the original tank when it's started missing, but nothing changed, both tanks have plenty of fuel, 10+ and 15+. The monitor doesn't show fuel flow. The fuel servo and the distribution spider is on our list to check, the first order of business is to look at the air intake ducting, turbo etc Precision Airmotives has a troubleshooting guide for the RSA 5-AD1 fuel servo that gives a list of things to check. Ok, learned that lesson, it may have nothing to do with it, but don't switch tanks right after takeoff unless you absolutely have no other option. Your troubleshooting approach sounds logical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnisley Posted September 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 I didn't do a takeoff from FKL, just an approach to the MAP then climbout but it probably wasn't wise doing it so soon after leveling off. I always try to switch while close to an airport if possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyNameIsNobody Posted September 1, 2015 Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 Ok, learned that lesson, it may have nothing to do with it, but don't switch tanks right after takeoff unless you absolutely have no other option. Your troubleshooting approach sounds logical. Not being argumentative, BUT, if you are pilot in command and you inspected/fueled the plane, WHY would you EVER have the only option of switching tanks right after take-off? I understand if you have lost power/engine running rough/EMERGENCY, but otherwise WHY? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted September 1, 2015 Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 I didn't do a takeoff from FKL, just an approach to the MAP then climbout but it probably wasn't wise doing it so soon after leveling off. I always try to switch while close to an airport if possible. I don't think switching tanks had anything to do with this. I think the topic is a distracting digression, but I am prepared to be wrong (I wake up prepared to be wrong). Yes, I think it's a good idea to use a tank with verified fuel continuity for take offs and landings (i.e. one that has been in use for the preceding 10 minutes or the one used on start up). Other than that, managing fuel load is up to the pilot. There is a lot of redundant safety items built into our fuel systems. If even reasonably maintained, the chances of engine problems due to mechanical failure of the system or a clogged line are minuscule. John's failure was very likely caused by something froward of the firewall. Trailing smoke to me suggests something mechanical failed in the intake or the exhaust putting oil into the system...given the presence of a turbo, thats what I'm betting on. Fuel servo is a maybe, but the presence of smoke indicates an overly rich condition. It seems unlikely to me that the servo would malfunction in such a way as to dump so much fuel into the engine that it wouldn't run at full throttle, but would run at partial throttle. Especially since the mixture was used in an attempt to produce more power. I look forward to learning something new from this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_elliott Posted September 1, 2015 Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 I didn't do a takeoff from FKL, just an approach to the MAP then climbout but it probably wasn't wise doing it so soon after leveling off. I always try to switch while close to an airport if possible. ahhh...understand and applaud the switch close to an airport. I thought it was on take off. my bad. Yes, it probably had nothing at all to do with it. Personally, I try to avoid changing anything like this from a known working condition to an unknown during a critical phase of flight. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertGary1 Posted September 1, 2015 Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 Not being argumentative, BUT, if you are pilot in command and you inspected/fueled the plane, WHY would you EVER have the only option of switching tanks right after take-off? I understand if you have lost power/engine running rough/EMERGENCY, but otherwise WHY? Re-read the thread. He wasn't taking off. -Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnisley Posted September 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 Report from mechanic: -Air ducting is fine -Turbo is fine Fuel servo is being pulled off as I write this. Can anyone tell me what the fuel flow should be while on the ground at around 800 RPM, I just reviewed the video I took when I did the run up after I had landed, it was 4.55-4.69 GPM, I wish I would have videoed the flow at higher power settings? When I did the run up it ran better at higher power settings than lower power settings, and it didn't idle at all below 700RPM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted September 1, 2015 Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 Id definately tell the overhauler this unit was involved in an incident, and to flow bench it and thoroughly test it BEFORE desassembling it for overhaul. This could have easily been a fatal accident and its very important to find the cause of malfunction before further flight. Simply tearing down the fuel servo for overhaul doesnt conclusively prove that was the cause, it could be something else. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertGary1 Posted September 1, 2015 Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 It sounds like he can reproduce the problem on the ground so it should be evident if its fixed when the servo is reinstalled. -Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted September 2, 2015 Report Share Posted September 2, 2015 It looked to me like it wasnt running right, and he checked this right after landing. Im not convinced its repeatable, unless he went out and ran it up to full takeoff power, again, after this incident. This is not the time for swapping parts and hoping you got it. I read about a guy who had a major loss of power intermittentlyin a Mooney. Replaced the FI system, the mags, the plugs, the cylinders, all didnt fix it. An engine overhaul, still didnt fix it. Some mechanic swapped mufflers from another Mooney in the shop, cured it. The culprit was a broken baffle inside the muffler covered the exhaust outlet. 50 grand later he was flying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnisley Posted September 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2015 Id definately tell the overhauler this unit was involved in an incident, and to flow bench it and thoroughly test it BEFORE desassembling it for overhaul. This could have easily been a fatal accident and its very important to find the cause of malfunction before further flight. Simply tearing down the fuel servo for overhaul doesnt conclusively prove that was the cause, it could be something else. My mechanic and I already discussed this, they will be made aware that we had a power loss incident and weren't able to pinpoint the problem on the ground, and believe me, I'm not flying the plane until I know what caused the problem. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted September 2, 2015 Report Share Posted September 2, 2015 Report from mechanic: -Air ducting is fine -Turbo is fine Fuel servo is being pulled off as I write this. Can anyone tell me what the fuel flow should be while on the ground at around 800 RPM, I just reviewed the video I took when I did the run up after I had landed, it was 4.55-4.69 GPM, I wish I would have videoed the flow at higher power settings? When I did the run up it ran better at higher power settings than lower power settings, and it didn't idle at all below 700RPM That flow is too high if you are talking GPH. My F is less than 2 GPH at that RPM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnisley Posted September 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2015 Does anyone know or could someone check what your IO360s fuel flow is at 800 RPM when you get a chance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnisley Posted September 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2015 That flow is too high if you are talking GPH. My F is less than 2 GPH at that RPM.[/quote That's what I was thinking it should be as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertGary1 Posted September 2, 2015 Report Share Posted September 2, 2015 The servo shop should send you the flow rates before and after the work from bench testing. That should tell you want is going on. That flow rate does look very high but that's off the top of my head. In my case it was a torn seal in the diaphragm. The servo is a pretty simple device that basically works off a diaphragm pressure. But my symptoms were high flow rates at power, not idle. I was seeing 30 gph at power and leaning it out didn't have much effect. Initially I had a fuel shop agree to look at it. They replaced some parts and told me I was good. I reinstalled the servo and the problem still happened. I then sent the servo to a shop Maxwell recommended and asked for a full overhaul. It was then good. The few dollars the guy saved me by not doing the full overhaul cost me a lot of time dropping the cowl, etc. -Robert 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnisley Posted September 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2015 Here are several pics of rpm fuel flow from the video, I tried to upload the video but couldn't. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted September 2, 2015 Report Share Posted September 2, 2015 you cylinder temp and oil temp are pegged out, why? Also, around 2 GPH is normal for 1000 RPM for an IO-360, maybe 3 something.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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