Tom Posted August 26, 2015 Report Share Posted August 26, 2015 It's curious to see these posts repetitively come up where someone regurgitates a find and asks everyone for analysis. The ratio of "trash" to "favorable" comments is no better than 10:1. Frankly the trash talkers don't seem at all experienced (or, experienced but only in reciting mantra), have been lucky, or are hesitent to admit that they themselves didn't pick the prom queen and had to put some money into their planes (i.e. had a typical purchase experience). When buying a plane you need someone who can be trusted to tell you that the plane has good bones. I appreciate the shout-out to see if anyone knows this bird, but I wouldn't for a second discount this plane (if I were in the market) based on the input a bunch of cackling hens. (apologies to the cackling hens, but feel free to post your purchase price, equipment lists, receipts to date, and a clean bill of health from Don M or Paul L) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Browncbr1 Posted August 26, 2015 Report Share Posted August 26, 2015 It's curious to see these posts repetitively come up where someone regurgitates a find and asks everyone for analysis. The ratio of "trash" to "favorable" comments is no better than 10:1. Frankly the trash talkers don't seem at all experienced (or, experienced but only in reciting mantra), have been lucky, or are hesitent to admit that they themselves didn't pick the prom queen and had to put some money into their planes (i.e. had a typical purchase experience). When buying a plane you need someone who can be trusted to tell you that the plane has good bones. I appreciate the shout-out to see if anyone knows this bird, but I wouldn't for a second discount this plane (if I were in the market) based on the input a bunch of cackling hens. (apologies to the cackling hens, but feel free to post your purchase price, equipment lists, receipts to date, and a clean bill of health from Don M or Paul L) Quick poll. Is this trash or favorable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertGary1 Posted August 26, 2015 Report Share Posted August 26, 2015 I think a perspective is in order as well. When you are buying a 50 year old airplane you can't expect it to compare to buying a new car. If you are the type of person who buys new cars and pays someone to work on them than any plane more than 10 years old is probably "trash" and you should probably either buy a new plane or reconsider ownership. If you look at weekends working in the hanger shooting bull with hanger neighbours while working on your plane as part of the experience than you'll probably have a better ownership experience. -Robert 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooniac15u Posted August 26, 2015 Report Share Posted August 26, 2015 There is a lot of room between those extremes. I rarely did any work on my 63D but I had a very positive ownership experience. I didn't expect everything to be perfect but I value my free time and would rather spend it flying. I do some minor work on my J but I still generally prefer leaving it in the hands of a professional that I trust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaV8or Posted August 27, 2015 Report Share Posted August 27, 2015 Quick poll. Is this trash or favorable? The quoted post, or the M20F in the OP? Both the post and the airplane are both trash and favorable. However as a known cackling hen on this forum for a while now, I would not pay me no never mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertGary1 Posted August 27, 2015 Report Share Posted August 27, 2015 I'm in the market for a small British Roadster. The experience is the same. If you're going to take the 40 year old car to a shop every time it breaks (and it will) you'll see it as a money pit. But if you like to go to club meetings and moan about your problems with others and tinker with it than you'll have a happy time. if you're more concerned with reliability and condition you buy a Japanese Miata. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooniac15u Posted August 27, 2015 Report Share Posted August 27, 2015 I'm in the market for a small British Roadster. The experience is the same. If you're going to take the 40 year old car to a shop every time it breaks (and it will) you'll see it as a money pit. But if you like to go to club meetings and moan about your problems with others and tinker with it than you'll have a happy time. if you're more concerned with reliability and condition you buy a Japanese Miata. Some derive satisfaction from working on machines, others don't. Some value their time over saving a few bucks. Some make more per hour than they pay their mechanic. Lots of paths to happy ownership. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMuncy Posted August 27, 2015 Report Share Posted August 27, 2015 Or you can play both ends. I have a Miata I drive every day. I also have a 1967 Lotus Elan, and a 1972 Lotus Europa (and a few Lancias, etc.) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaV8or Posted August 28, 2015 Report Share Posted August 28, 2015 I'm in the market for a small British Roadster. The experience is the same. If you're going to take the 40 year old car to a shop every time it breaks (and it will) you'll see it as a money pit. But if you like to go to club meetings and moan about your problems with others and tinker with it than you'll have a happy time. if you're more concerned with reliability and condition you buy a Japanese Miata. The problem is, I don't know if there is a Miata equivalent for airplanes and if there is, I could never afford it. I fly a 50 year old Mooney because it's what I can afford, not because it's the best airplane, not because I like working on planes and not because I like hanging around with others bitching about all the issues. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted August 28, 2015 Report Share Posted August 28, 2015 This pretty much says it. ....and it's also possible to run across a decent 231 that needs to be upgraded from the ground up for not much more money than the asking price on this M20F. ...or get all the upgrades that KSMooniac has mentioned included in this plane. Would have Don Maxwell look at this one due to the airframe repairs.: http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20K-231/1980-MOONEY-M20K-231/1390449.htm This begs the question, what is so much better about a 231 over a normalized F? Is it the more temperamental engine or additional fuel burn from the boosted, low compression engine? Perhaps the additional weight? The convenience of electric flaps and gear? Maybe it's that the 38 year old airplane smell is better than 48 year old airplane smell? I bet block speeds are pretty darn close. The real upshot might be resale as people often want newer, cooler airplane. From a performance standpoint, I think they probably compare well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaV8or Posted August 28, 2015 Report Share Posted August 28, 2015 This begs the question, what is so much better about a 231 over a normalized F? Is it the more temperamental engine or additional fuel burn from the boosted, low compression engine? Perhaps the additional weight? The convenience of electric flaps and gear? Maybe it's the 38 year old airplane smell is better than 48 year old airplane smell? I bet block speeds are pretty darn close. The real upshot might be resale as people often want newer, cooler airplane. From a performance standpoint, I think they probably compare well. Well, aerodynamically, the 231 is far superior to the F even with the 201 windshield. The 231 will be faster, but one does have to consider the increased pilot work load with the 231. My understanding is the turbo normalized Ray Jay is pretty much set and forget. I could be wrong though. Also the F should be cheaper to maintain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted August 28, 2015 Report Share Posted August 28, 2015 Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted August 28, 2015 Report Share Posted August 28, 2015 Well, aerodynamically, the 231 is far superior to the F even with the 201 windshield. The 231 will be faster, but one does have to consider the increased pilot work load with the 231. My understanding is the turbo normalized Ray Jay is pretty much set and forget. I could be wrong though. Also the F should be cheaper to maintain. True, it will be faster. Just like a normally aspirated 201 is faster than a normally aspirated F. But haw far apart are they really? How far apart are an F with a modded windshield and a 201. Your bird has been given the SWTA treatment, how much slower are you than a J? I maintain that block speed differences at altitude wont be that far apart. I'd bet less than 10kts. I know that if I were west bound and flying low to stay out of the prevailing winds, I'd rather be in the normalized aircraft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted August 28, 2015 Report Share Posted August 28, 2015 True, it will be faster. Just like a normally aspirated 201 is faster than a normally aspirated F. But haw far apart are they really? How far apart is an F with a modded windshield and a 201. Your bird has been given the SWTA treatment, how much slower are you than a J? I maintain that block speed differences at altitude wont be that far apart. I'd bet less than 10kts. I know that if I were west bound and flying low to stay out of the prevailing winds, I'd rather be in the normalized aircraft I hope 201er is not reading this thread... He and I have been challenging each other to a race for a couple of years. His 1978 (with a newer engine) is in the same TAS range as my modded F. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonal Posted August 28, 2015 Report Share Posted August 28, 2015 I hope 201er is not reading this thread... He and I have been challenging each other to a race for a couple of years. His 1978 (with a newer engine) is in the same TAS range as my modded F. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk This needs to happen and we need to get a betting line started with someone laying odds "gentlemen start your engines" 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted August 28, 2015 Report Share Posted August 28, 2015 This needs to happen and we need to get a betting line started with someone laying odds "gentlemen start your engines" Let me know, I'll take the trip north to run my stock F in the mix. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertGary1 Posted August 28, 2015 Report Share Posted August 28, 2015 Let me know, I'll take the trip north to run my stock F in the mix. Load it with 30 gal of fuel for a 1 hour flight instead of the 64 gal that J pilots seem to think they need to fill to and you'll run circles around the J. -Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSMooniac Posted August 28, 2015 Report Share Posted August 28, 2015 Load it with 30 gal of fuel for a 1 hour flight instead of the 64 gal that J pilots seem to think they need to fill to and you'll run circles around the J. -Robert Only if the J pilot is fat and has 64 gallons on board. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guitarmaster Posted August 29, 2015 Report Share Posted August 29, 2015 Let me know, I'll take the trip north to run my stock F in the mix. Me too!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertGary1 Posted August 29, 2015 Report Share Posted August 29, 2015 Some derive satisfaction from working on machines, others don't. Some value their time over saving a few bucks. Some make more per hour than they pay their mechanic. Lots of paths to happy ownership. For me its not just about enjoyment but having high standards. I've had my Mooney for a lot of years and in the first years I went to several Mooney Service Centers and expensive shops. Then I decided I should do a couple inspections myself afterwards. That was enough to change my mind. Nut not installed on the aileron bellcrank, no cotter pin on a main gear nut, terminal post on alternator field ground finger tight, etc, etc, etc. So I decided if I was going to fly around with my kids in the plane over remote areas of Mexico I needed to get more involved in maintenance. So I consider the extra set of eyes (mine) to be a safety thing. A lot of us are trained as engineers, there isn't much on the Mooney that is hard to understand for that group. -Robert 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaV8or Posted August 29, 2015 Report Share Posted August 29, 2015 Me too!! Me too!!! I'll run at 65% and bring up the rear! Anybody blows an engine, I'll circle their dead plane until help arrives!! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryoder Posted August 29, 2015 Report Share Posted August 29, 2015 A couple more things to think about. The engine, I wouldn't be too concerned about that. Mine was overhauled in 1994 and had 12 hours on it when I bought it. The guy overhauled it, got sick and died. I talked at length with the engine shop on the field and they said they would not be scared of it. Mine wasn't even broke in when I got it so there is a difference there. So far so good on mine. I have put 150ish hours on it with no issues. Time will tell, but i believe I am beyond the infant mortality stage. In order to protect yourself, try a Mike Busch strategy, escrow $15,000 of the price for a year. Fly the crap out of the airplane and If there are no problems then the broker gets the 15, if it has problems bad enough to overhaul, it goes to the engine shop and you pay half of the re-build rather than the whole thing. The avionics would be my biggest concern, assuming you want an IFR bird. I just got a quote from Sarasota Avionics to upgrade. Aspen, GNS430W, Ads-b compliant xponder, audio panel and a few other things. $40,000. Yes, you read that right. True, this is an all-in -one shot, still.... my point is, avionics are EXPENSIVE! Many things are 'nice to haves" but there are a few "need to haves." The biggest thing I would be looking for is corrosion. In particular, stub-spar corrosion. Although it is a Cali bird, look closely. Good luck!! I also wanted an Aspen but only the vfr one when I bought my Mooney and they quoted me five thousand to rebuild my panel and install the 5k Aspen vfr. I thought the Aspen was easy to install and would be relatively cheap. I was wrong. Then they said keep the steamers and install a 430W with a GI106 and that was ten thousand. This is why I don't mind paying for a data plan on my iPad and the Garmin pilot subscription. If I keep the plane for a long time and part 23 reform goes through I'll hopefully remove everything from the panel and install a Garmin G3X. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooniac15u Posted August 29, 2015 Report Share Posted August 29, 2015 For me its not just about enjoyment but having high standards. I've had my Mooney for a lot of years and in the first years I went to several Mooney Service Centers and expensive shops. Then I decided I should do a couple inspections myself afterwards. That was enough to change my mind. Nut not installed on the aileron bellcrank, no cotter pin on a main gear nut, terminal post on alternator field ground finger tight, etc, etc, etc. So I decided if I was going to fly around with my kids in the plane over remote areas of Mexico I needed to get more involved in maintenance. So I consider the extra set of eyes (mine) to be a safety thing. A lot of us are trained as engineers, there isn't much on the Mooney that is hard to understand for that group. -Robert There's a big difference between being engaged in the maintenance and spending hours of your own time drilling rivets to replace a piano hinge on the gear door. I have a background in science and engineering. I have a good understanding of the systems. I check over any work that gets done. I just prefer to pay an experienced professional to do the work. This is not an all or nothing deal. Another thing to consider is that a potential buyer may not share your enthusiasm for owner maintenance. Many buyers would probably like to see a good history of professional service in the log books. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted August 29, 2015 Report Share Posted August 29, 2015 I also wanted an Aspen but only the vfr one when I bought my Mooney and they quoted me five thousand to rebuild my panel and install the 5k Aspen vfr. I thought the Aspen was easy to install and would be relatively cheap. I was wrong. Then they said keep the steamers and install a 430W with a GI106 and that was ten thousand. This is why I don't mind paying for a data plan on my iPad and the Garmin pilot subscription. If I keep the plane for a long time and part 23 reform goes through I'll hopefully remove everything from the panel and install a Garmin G3X. I would check around for installation costs on anything I installed. When I had my panel upgrade done, the shops I got quotes from had an $8k spread for the exact same stuff being installed. Some of the higher volume avionics shops can discount more on the hardware. But there is also a lot of shenanigans going on with the true installation cost. Some shops that may be higher know more details and will present this in the quote. As an example, my flight director hookup was not discussed in half of the quotes. Another thing I would never do is work from an estimate or from a quote generated without them seeing my plane in person. Shops that estimate will almost always drop unexpected costs on you and shops that haven't seen your plane will surprise you by saying they want to charge you more because they didn't know what problems they would encounter or that they didn't quote an option because they didn't know you needed it. If you you find a respectable shop -- hang onto them! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaV8or Posted August 29, 2015 Report Share Posted August 29, 2015 Another thing to consider is that a potential buyer may not share your enthusiasm for owner maintenance. Many buyers would probably like to see a good history of professional service in the log books. This is very, very true. As a potential buyer, I don't want to see annual after annual signed off by Joe Shmoe. This is why I am thinking of doing my own annuals with a local guy sign off every other year and on the off year, the plane goes to LASAR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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