Touch and Go's

[bonal]

I think pilot skill can not always be measured by status. There are excellent Private pilots as well as not so excellent professional pilots. Recall the Asiana crash at SFO or the one at Buffalo both incidents were the result of poor training and procedure. Personally I have much to learn and hold a great respect for pilots that achieve airline or military flight status. If I were 30 years younger I would pursue such a career. As for me I have practiced touch and go because I don't ever want to be unprepared for some thing unexpected.

[Mooneymite]

......As for me I have practiced touch and go because I don't ever want to be unprepared for some thing unexpected.

It's a maneuver!

Practice as needed. Use if/when appropriate.

Just one tool in a big box of tools every pilot should have.

[rockydoc]

This thread is exactly the reason i belong to this forum.  i.e.  we get so many different points interjected that promotes thought on our part thereby making us more prepared to deal with the actual situation when it DOES occur--as we all know it WILL some day.

Thanks again to all of you for sharing your experiences here so I can benefit from them.

A smart man learns from the mistakes of others.  A not as smart man learns from his own mistakes.

Rocky

[bonal]

I can think of several cases where I have found information that proved very helpful here on MS. From simple to complex ground to flight opp's. A great source of info and fellowship

[Hank]

I can think of several cases where I have found information that proved very helpful here on MS. From simple to complex ground to flight opp's. A great source of info and fellowship

And I've made some friends, some of whom I've met and some I haven't (Gus?).

Good site, good folks, good information.

[bonal]

Only met 1 so far although I see many that are based near by. LASAR is hosting a BBQ on the 27th perhaps some will be there.

[John Pleisse]

What a short memory we have about touch and goes in complex aircraft. There are 4 or 5 threads right here on MS  in the past couple years, that resulted in 40-50K damage, in some cases totaling out the airplane, directly from the maneuver and grabbing the wrong switch. Remember if you unlatch the switch its going to collapse.

 

I wish they had two rates for insurance.  Touch and go, and no coverage for the maneuver. I  could save a lot of money in premiums.

 

 Amen.

[Lood]

While I was filling my Avgas drums today at Tempe airport in Bloemfontein, South Africa, a King Air C90A was doing touch and goes. I witnessed about five before it taxied in to refuel. This discussion came to mind, especially with the King Air using runway 01, which is 3900' long and only 30' wide...

[Releew]

I don't know if I should apologize for starting this thread, or say thank you for all the replies......

 

At the end of the discussion (in which I see there will be no end) T&G's are simply another maneuver to maintain pilot proficiency.  If you... as the PIC do not feel comfortable......don't do them!

 

When I first wrote the thread I should have clarified I did not mean "hours of T&G's......"   too costly in these machines!  The thought process was.. when there was a condition that would provide some good approach and transition back to flight, it would be a good practice to shoot a few T&G's as it is a part of any pilot's primary training.  

 

Being a new Mooney owner I was concerned I was missing something vital based on the design of the aircraft as I have seen so much negativity on TNG's.....  The thread did answer my primary concern......  It's not the aircraft that has a problem with the maneuver, it's the individual who may choose not to.

 

Thanks

 

Rick

[carusoam]

Rick,

Had you mentioned that early on...

Apparently primary training doesn't cover distractions (aka brain farts) and how efficiently they work.

One brief distraction can easily cause the purchase of a new prop, single piece belly and engine overhaul. $50k?

Clearly not a Mooney specific issue.

Who is going to complain about the manufacturer of the gray matter?

Best regards,

-a-

[Rhumbline]

I don't know if I should apologize for starting this thread, or say thank you for all the replies......

 

At the end of the discussion (in which I see there will be no end) T&G's are simply another maneuver to maintain pilot proficiency.  If you... as the PIC do not feel comfortable......don't do them!

 

When I first wrote the thread I should have clarified I did not mean "hours of T&G's......"   too costly in these machines!  The thought process was.. when there was a condition that would provide some good approach and transition back to flight, it would be a good practice to shoot a few T&G's as it is a part of any pilot's primary training.  

 

Being a new Mooney owner I was concerned I was missing something vital based on the design of the aircraft as I have seen so much negativity on TNG's.....  The thread did answer my primary concern......  It's not the aircraft that has a problem with the maneuver, it's the individual who may choose not to.

 

Thanks

 

Rick

 

You didn't miss anything.  Enjoy your airplane!

[N601RX]

http://mooneyspace.c...nd-go-incident/

http://mooneyspace.c...ive-brain-fart/

http://mooneyspace.c...ps-on-roll-out/

http://mooneyspace.c...elp/#entry37175

http://mooneyspace.c...ident-at-chino/

[Mooneymite]

http://mooneyspace.c...nd-go-incident/

http://mooneyspace.c...ive-brain-fart/

http://mooneyspace.c...ps-on-roll-out/

http://mooneyspace.c...elp/#entry37175

http://mooneyspace.c...ident-at-chino/

????????

 

N601RX, I'm not sure what your point in posting these threads is.  If it is to prove that accidents occurr during TnG's, why not post all the threads about runway LOC, takeoffs and landings?  A lot more examples of those....

 

In each of these cases, the problem is not that the maneuver was inherently dangerous, or difficult.  If anything, accidents while doing TnG's, point to the fact that the pilot obviously did not maintain proficiency in the maneuver!

 

There are lots of maneuvers that are fraught with "bad statisitcs".  Takeoff and Landing are two that come to mind.  So.....?  Should we avoid those maneuvers....?  Never takeoff, or never land?  That's a terrific way to lower our accident rate!  

 

However, the more reasonable approach is to practice and become proficient.  If one is not proficient in TnG's, find an instructor who is and review them.  If you analyze the TnG maneuver, it is just a combination of other maneuvers we do every day.

 

Obviously, there are situations, locations, conditions where TnG's are not appropriate, just as there are situations where takeoff , or landing is not appropriate.  We must always exercise good judgement in such things.

 

TnG is a maneuver!  I believe that any Mooney pilot who is the master of his craft should be proficient at them and not afraid of them.   

[midlifeflyer]

 

TnG is a maneuver!  I believe that any Mooney pilot who is the master of his craft should be proficient at them and not afraid of them.   

 

I guess it depends on what one defines as a "maneuver." I'm not at all against touch & goes but I don't consider not coming to a full stop or taxiing off a runway important enough for that name.

[N201MKTurbo]

I agree that a proficient Mooney pilot should be able to do touch and go's at any time without planning.

 

If you choose not to do them it is one thing, but if you don't feel safe doing them you should consider more training.

[N601RX]

????????

 

N601RX, I'm not sure what your point in posting these threads is.  If it is to prove that accidents occurr during TnG's, why not post all the threads about runway LOC, takeoffs and landings?  A lot more examples of those....

 

In each of these cases, the problem is not that the maneuver was inherently dangerous, or difficult.  If anything, accidents while doing TnG's, point to the fact that the pilot obviously did not maintain proficiency in the maneuver!

 

There are lots of maneuvers that are fraught with "bad statisitcs".  Takeoff and Landing are two that come to mind.  So.....?  Should we avoid those maneuvers....?  Never takeoff, or never land?  That's a terrific way to lower our accident rate!  

 

However, the more reasonable approach is to practice and become proficient.  If one is not proficient in TnG's, find an instructor who is and review them.  If you analyze the TnG maneuver, it is just a combination of other maneuvers we do every day.

 

Obviously, there are situations, locations, conditions where TnG's are not appropriate, just as there are situations where takeoff , or landing is not appropriate.  We must always exercise good judgement is such things.

 

TnG is a maneuver!  I believe that any Mooney pilot who is the master of his craft should be proficient at them and not afraid of them.

Most of the links are just 1st hand accounts of what happened and why it happened.  If you don't like the links then don't click on them, for others they may at least make them be more careful if they decide to to touch and go's.  Yes, I've occasionally done them before, but because of post like these if I do I run through a mental checklist between the "touch" and "go"

 

Do you feel that the pilot who originally started this thread should not be allowed to read 1st hand accounts of mistakes others have made and learn from them? As a couple of them stated, that's why they made the post.

[carusoam]

Not feeling comfortable isn't the problem...

It's the comfortable feeling the brain can give when not everything is right.

Distraction = expense

Fly on,

-a-

[jetdriven]

????????

N601RX, I'm not sure what your point in posting these threads is. If it is to prove that accidents occurr during TnG's, why not post all the threads about runway LOC, takeoffs and landings? A lot more examples of those....

In each of these cases, the problem is not that the maneuver was inherently dangerous, or difficult. If anything, accidents while doing TnG's, point to the fact that the pilot obviously did not maintain proficiency in the maneuver!

There are lots of maneuvers that are fraught with "bad statisitcs". Takeoff and Landing are two that come to mind. So.....? Should we avoid those maneuvers....? Never takeoff, or never land? That's a terrific way to lower our accident rate!

However, the more reasonable approach is to practice and become proficient. If one is not proficient in TnG's, find an instructor who is and review them. If you analyze the TnG maneuver, it is just a combination of other maneuvers we do every day.

Obviously, there are situations, locations, conditions where TnG's are not appropriate, just as there are situations where takeoff , or landing is not appropriate. We must always exercise good judgement is such things.

TnG is a maneuver! I believe that any Mooney pilot who is the master of his craft should be proficient at them and not afraid of them.

The same could be said for engine failure-return to runway maneuvers, scud running, downwind landings, and simulated engine failures performed with the mixture below 1000'.

None of those maneuvers can be called inherently dangerous or difficult, as you say. However, risk is everywhere, but nowhere in particular. But it does tend to cluster around certain things.

[Mooneymite]

Most of the links are just 1st hand accounts of what happened and why it happened.  If you don't like the links then don't click on them, for others they may at least make them be more careful if they decide to to touch and go's.  Yes, I've occasionally done them before, but because of post like these if I do I run through a mental checklist between the "touch" and "go"

 

Do you feel that the pilot who originally started this thread should not be allowed to read 1st hand accounts of mistakes others have made and learn from them? As a couple of them stated, that's why they made the post.

Then it was a good idea to post the links.

I gathered that the links were in support of the idea that there is something "extra dangerous" about TnG's, but you make a good point. Learning from the experiences of others is generally a less expensive way to go. :-)

[BigTex]

I guess it depends on what one defines as a "maneuver." I'm not at all against touch & goes but I don't consider not coming to a full stop or taxiing off a runway important enough for that name.

 

I personally believe that the landing "maneuver" isn't complete until you taxi off the runway past the hold line and complete your post landing flow check (fuel pump, landing light, carb heat, flaps, lean for taxi).  Same thing for taking off (Light's, Camera, Action, etc).  For me, reinforcing these flow-checks is every bit as important to practice as the actual act of landing the aircraft.  So combining these two maneuvers would not allow you to effective complete these checks.  Now if you want to practice go-around's and botched landing (with different flow checks) then that's a different issue. I do see the value practicing these maneuvers.

[midlifeflyer]

I personally believe that the landing "maneuver" isn't complete until you taxi off the runway past the hold line and complete your post landing flow check (fuel pump, landing light, carb heat, flaps, lean for taxi).  Same thing for taking off (Light's, Camera, Action, etc).  For me, reinforcing these flow-checks is every bit as important to practice as the actual act of landing the aircraft.  So combining these two maneuvers would not allow you to effective complete these checks.  Now if you want to practice go-around's and botched landing (with different flow checks) then that's a different issue. I do see the value practicing these maneuvers.

I think you are very effectively describing what many see as the difference between the "convenience" of a TnG to allow one to perform multiple landing and takeoff "maneuvers" in a shorter period of time.