Upgrading My 68C

[LevelWing]

I've been going back and forth trying to decide if I want to sell my Mooney to get a newer one or stay with this one and just upgrade it. I've decided that I'm going to keep my C model and do at least some upgrades. It has basic IFR and no IFR GPS. I'm undecided about what to upgrade and in what order. The radios are decent (KX-155's) and I have a KNS-80 in there as well. I really would like an IFR certified GPS and an EDM-900 to go in there (along with a panel re-arrangement). I've read the arguments time and again about the cost effectiveness of putting in an IFR certified GPS and I can see both sides of it. I do a lot of cross country flying and think the IFR certified GPS would really help out.

 

I'm interested in thoughts and opinions from everyone here on the best way to proceed.

[Hank]

Buy a new GPS. Don't cheap out on a 430/530, the extra money for a GTN will be money well spent. Other than that, put in whatever you want and can afford, all at once to minimize downtime in the shop.

And post pictures! :-)

(I'm finding it easy to spend Other People's Money. Should I go into politics?)

[Marauder]

There is an emotional versus economic exercise you are going through. Having owned the same plane for 23 years, I almost convinced myself that selling and "upgrading" to a newer Mooney was the direction I should take.

The reality is that I owned my plane outright. With the IFR equipment I had in the plane, it would have been difficult to sell and even more difficult to get decent money out of it. In order to get into an O or Bravo, I would have needed to finance. Operating costs would be more and maintenance would still exist. At the end of the day, with just my wife and I, it made more sense to keep it and update it on my timeline and budget.

As for your question, you can certainly continue on flying with the equipment you have. I did it for 21 years until I made my decision to keep. Once I made peace with that decision, adding stuff I wanted became more enjoyable.

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[Marauder]

As for the equipment, I had no idea how much I would enjoy flying behind a WAAS GPS. Really simplified things once I learned how to use the GPS. Add in the Aspens and I haven't had so much fun flying my plane.

I would wait to see what comes out of Oshkosh. I suspect, there may be some new announcements and perhaps some timely rebate offers...

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[carusoam]

On the other hand...

I had a C...

It needed 20 - 50k in improvements... Paint, OH, reseal, prop, GPS...

The R replaced it...

It needed a loan for all the improvement that it is.

I'm still years away from adding WAAS or Aspens....

How's the economy looking?

-a-

[AmigOne]

I've been going back and forth trying to decide if I want to sell my Mooney to get a newer one or stay with this one and just upgrade it. I've decided that I'm going to keep my C model and do at least some upgrades. It has basic IFR and no IFR GPS. I'm undecided about what to upgrade and in what order. The radios are decent (KX-155's) and I have a KNS-80 in there as well. I really would like an IFR certified GPS and an EDM-900 to go in there (along with a panel re-arrangement). I've read the arguments time and again about the cost effectiveness of putting in an IFR certified GPS and I can see both sides of it. I do a lot of cross country flying and think the IFR certified GPS would really help out.

 

I'm interested in thoughts and opinions from everyone here on the best way to proceed.

 

Not knowing what your budget is it is difficult to make realistic recommendations.  You have not indicated if you have an a/p but if you don't, that is the first thing I would want to have. 30 years ago when I had a KNS 80 and the excellent KFC 200 with HSI and FD and KX 155s in my 20J,  that was I all needed to fly everywhere and shoot approaches to minimum.    Now it seems that if we don't have an array of glass somehow x-country flights are more difficult.  

The KNS 80 allows you to "cheat", get a good portable GPS - and there are many - (of course you can also use Foreflight on the iPad), file /R but navigate with the GPS and in flight ask direct when convenient.  With fuel at $6/gl and climbing, a big investment in avionics could easily push you total $$/hr in your 180HP C closer to $180-200/hr if you fly at least 100/year.  And that is a lot of money, at least for me, but once again not knowing your budget this may be ok for you. 

[MooneyPTG]

I put in a KLN 89B about 6 months ago for about 2500 and am thrilled. I have wing x on my ipad, on my yoke, which is what I can see with ease. I know everybody pushes the 430's but  I didnt need a new radio or a 3 inch moving map installed for about 8000.00. Just my opinion.

[Bob_Belville]

I had a KNS80, a Narco HSI and a Garmin GPS 155 TSO IFR in a '66E. I decided to upgrade the HSI to an Aspen and the GPS to a GTN750. One thing led to another... see gallery. I am delighted, traveling is fun. Busy airspace is a breeze. No paper, no kneepads, no sweat. And the next owner will be even more delighted as I have no expectation of recouping my "investment".  

 

http://mooneyspace.com/gallery/album/13712-n943rw-66-m20e/

[Marauder]

I had a KNS80, a Narco HSI and a Garmin GPS 155 TSO IFR in a '66E. I decided to upgrade the HSI to an Aspen and the GPS to a GTN750. One thing led to another... see gallery. I am delighted, traveling is fun. Busy airspace is a breeze. No paper, no kneepads, no sweat. And the next owner will be even more delighted as I have no expectation of recouping my "investment".

http://mooneyspace.com/gallery/album/13712-n943rw-66-m20e/

Bob and I are sharing our experience of blowing our kid's inheritance, one upgrade at a time

Like Bob, I took a pretty basic panel, joined MOWWW (Mooney Owner Who Went Wild) and did the upgrade. Trust me, you'll second guess yourself. If you are satisfied with the airframe and the plane meets the majority of your missions, go for it.

Here is what my panel started like:

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[triple8s]

You could go the route I went, upgrade and THEN trade! I had trouble justifying the money in a 1965 model airframe, almost any "C" model is only going to bring "X" no matter what equipment is in it. I had more invested than any "C" was selling for and I had opportunity to trade for an"R"and end up with a better financial position in the end so I traded. The long heavy "R" is much more stable, has a newer look and smell but, the "C" I had looked very good had the OEM 201 cowl and windshield a low time FWF, it handled lighter on the controls was cheaper to operate, easier to push in and out of the hangar, and was more at home on grass strips. Aviation is always about compromise I guess, just have to figure out what you want.   

[LevelWing]

Not knowing what your budget is it is difficult to make realistic recommendations.  You have not indicated if you have an a/p but if you don't, that is the first thing I would want to have. 30 years ago when I had a KNS 80 and the excellent KFC 200 with HSI and FD and KX 155s in my 20J,  that was I all needed to fly everywhere and shoot approaches to minimum.    Now it seems that if we don't have an array of glass somehow x-country flights are more difficult.  

The KNS 80 allows you to "cheat", get a good portable GPS - and there are many - (of course you can also use Foreflight on the iPad), file /R but navigate with the GPS and in flight ask direct when convenient.  With fuel at $6/gl and climbing, a big investment in avionics could easily push you total $$/hr in your 180HP C closer to $180-200/hr if you fly at least 100/year.  And that is a lot of money, at least for me, but once again not knowing your budget this may be ok for you. 

 

I don't have a specific budget right now, I'll upgrade what I can as I can. I understand the costs of purchasing and installing a new GPS, especially if I went with a GTN650/750. I also understand the lack of return I'll get if I decide to sell the plane later down the road.

 

The biggest reason I was looking to upgrade to a newer Mooney was because I really wanted a fuel injected plane, but I don't mind keeping my C model for a while.

 

I put in a KLN 89B about 6 months ago for about 2500 and am thrilled. I have wing x on my ipad, on my yoke, which is what I can see with ease. I know everybody pushes the 430's but  I didnt need a new radio or a 3 inch moving map installed for about 8000.00. Just my opinion.

I thought about going this route but 1.) really want WAAS and 2.) figured if I was going to spend the money to have an IFR GPS installed, I should just go all the way and get a good one that I won't have to worry about upgrading for a while.

 

I do have a Garmin GPSMAP 396 in the plane but I don't subscribe to the XM. I also have an iPad with ForeFlight but no Stratus yet.

 

Here's a rough list of the upgrades that I would like for the plane, but fully understand that I may never get to do all of them:

 

• WAAS GPS
• EDM-900
• Aspens
• Panel re-arrangement
• Interior
• Paint

The interior is original and is actually still in pretty good shape, I just would like to move to something a little nicer. The paint is also original and it's definitely showing it's age, however it could be in a lot worse shape.

[KSMooniac]

Someone just listed a 430W on Beechtalk this morning for $4750, available in a couple weeks after his new Avidyne is delivered.  (He's in the first group).  That is by far the cheapest 430W I've seen on the market, and it isn't stolen.    They're usually fetching $6000-7000 used right now.

[KSMooniac]

Nevermind... sold in about an hour!

[LevelWing]

Someone just listed a 430W on Beechtalk this morning for $4750, available in a couple weeks after his new Avidyne is delivered.  (He's in the first group).  That is by far the cheapest 430W I've seen on the market, and it isn't stolen.    They're usually fetching $6000-7000 used right now.

 

 

Nevermind... sold in about an hour!

 

I would probably have taken a 430W for that price. It doesn't surprise me it sold that fast.

 

I think I'm going to look into doing a panel re-arrangement to start with. Have a standard 6-pack put in and move some of the other gauges closer. With installation, the GTN-650 will likely be close to $15,000 I'm guessing.

[N601RX]

It's going to be interesting to see shat happens to used 430 prices in the next few weeks when the Avidyne units start shipping. It's likely you will see a big dip in prices at least for a while until the flood of used ones are gone.

[LevelWing]

It's going to be interesting to see shat happens to used 430 prices in the next few weeks when the Avidyne units start shipping. It's likely you will see a big dip in prices at least for a while until the flood of used ones are gone.

How much do you think they'll drop by? If it drops enough, I'd pick one up. It's still a good unit. Which Avidyne unit are you referring to?

[Marauder]

It's going to be interesting to see shat happens to used 430 prices in the next few weeks when the Avidyne units start shipping. It's likely you will see a big dip in prices at least for a while until the flood of used ones are gone.

Ain't competition great -- for us?

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[Marauder]

How much do you think they'll drop by? If it drops enough, I'd pick one up. It's still a good unit. Which Avidyne unit are you referring to?

http://www.avidyne.com/products/ifd540/index.asp

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[cliffy]

I figure my C is a "low dollar traveling machine". If I wanted all the bells and whistles I'd go 201 or up.

As a low dollar scheme, I don't want to go upside down on radios.

I also looked at my flying profile. I've done all the 600 RVR Auto-lands I'll ever do. Done all the 200 & 1/2

in blowing snow I ever want to do. I don't have a need to PLAN a flight with a landing in those conditions

anymore.

I do want to be able to "occasionally" go cross-country (with high ceilings) direct, on top. I do want to be

able to shoot non-precision GPS approaches "occasionally"! Where I live and fly, winter always means ice when

IFR so, if I can't do it VFR I don't go. I do need to do an occasional ILS and marine layer climb out so IFR

capability is needed.

With all that in mind, I have a King 155 Nav-Com and a Garmin 155 TSO GPS with a Britain Accu-Trac auotopilot

for straight and level flight. I use an iFly 700 on my control wheel to track the flight and approaches. I know if

everything goes bad I can do an approach on just the iFly 700 if I absolutely had to in an emergency just like I used

to practice CAT III 50 ft approaches (in good weather) by hand flying (CAT III for those not familiar is A/P Auto-land

only).

This fills my flying profile to a "T". I'd never get my money out of a C with top dollar radios. I'll never get

top dollar for even a good C model (the market just isn't there). So, I fly cheap, I keep it in good shape and I

enjoy relaxing and flying (sometimes without any radios on except the Xponder) for hours at a time.

When it comes time to sell, it will sell for what it is worth and I'll have had 20 to 25 years of cheap flying.

[LevelWing]

We have different missions and it sounds like you're a professional pilot with all of the necessary ratings. I am not IR rated yet and think an IFR certified GPS would be helpful. I agree that I will not get out of the plane what I put into it, but if I keep it for several years then it may be worth it. Eventually I'd like to upgrade to a newer plane but until that time I don't want to be limited in what I can do.

[Tom]

The Part 23 re-write may be delayed until late 2017.  This said, I would still try to resist the urge to add current generation engine monitors or EFIS for at least a year or two.  The FlightDEK D180 costs less than the EDM-900...and the D180 can drive a 2-axis autopilot system that can be coupled.  And this is Dynon's old model.

 

We all have our own tastes and values.  For me I would focus my money on:

1) having a multi-channel EGT/CHT engine monitor (even if a $1200 G1)

2) ADS-B with AHRS in/out on the Ipad (out for safety for the next 6 years)

3) 430W or greater GPS

4) training (instrument, tailwheel, glider)

 

I don't mean to per se encourage fantasization, but consider what your C can be in a post Part 23 change world.  Imagine installing a Lopresti cowling for a few thousand dollars.  Getting rid of the myriad bazillion dials and switches and replacing with a 2-3 screens with a 2-axis autopilot for maybe less than the cost of a current Aspen pro installation.  Adding a supercharger for 10-12 AMU.  The list goes on and on.

 

 

 

[LevelWing]

It doesn't look like they're certified to use in Mooney's right now, otherwise that'd be a good option to look at.

 

I'm going to keep an eye on the 430W prices as the new Aspen's come out as suggested previously. Hopefully the prices will drop to a level that's more reasonable for how old they are.

[KSMooniac]

Well, the Avidyne IFD540 that just got certified (finally!) is a plug-n-play replacement for the 530(W) units...not the 430.  The sister product is the IFD440 that will replace the 430, and it is not yet certified or shipping.  Hopefully by the end of the year, but we've heard that song before.  I wouldn't expect a flood of 430W's on the used market just yet...but maybe some folks will be replacing a 430W with an IFD540, but I expect most will be replacing 530 boxes since the installation is trivial.

 

FWIW, I have both (530W/430W) and would encourage anyone to take the 530W over the 430W.  The extra screen area and display field options are well worth the extra space and cost.

[LevelWing]

Well, the Avidyne IFD540 that just got certified (finally!) is a plug-n-play replacement for the 530(W) units...not the 430.  The sister product is the IFD440 that will replace the 430, and it is not yet certified or shipping.  Hopefully by the end of the year, but we've heard that song before.  I wouldn't expect a flood of 430W's on the used market just yet...but maybe some folks will be replacing a 430W with an IFD540, but I expect most will be replacing 530 boxes since the installation is trivial.

 

FWIW, I have both (530W/430W) and would encourage anyone to take the 530W over the 430W.  The extra screen area and display field options are well worth the extra space and cost.

The Avidyne is what I was referring to, not the Aspen. The problem is that for the price of the 530W I can basically get a new GTN-650, excluding installation. I don't mind spending the money to upgrade my plane even if I do want to upgrade to a newer plane in the future, I just want to make sure I upgrade it in the order that suits my mission the best.

[KSMooniac]

The Avidyne is what I was referring to, not the Aspen. The problem is that for the price of the 530W I can basically get a new GTN-650, excluding installation. I don't mind spending the money to upgrade my plane even if I do want to upgrade to a newer plane in the future, I just want to make sure I upgrade it in the order that suits my mission the best.

 

Definitely... in the not-too-distant future the prices of used 530W and 430W boxes should finally fall to far enough below the price of a GTN or IFD box to make them more viable for the vintage fleet.  They are still great boxes, and the new ones don't really do anything additional aside from airways support.  The new Garmin FlightStream box looks like a nice accessory to solve that issue too, if an owner feels the need.  

 

For those on the fence, WAAS navigation + GPSS + autopilot is a real game-change for single pilot IFR.  It is a tremendous safety enhancement IMO, and worth some AMUs to upgrade if you fly IFR.  (used GPSS modules appear now and then as they are removed during Aspen upgrades, so you can find bargains now and then.)