Hondo Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 Anyone have experience with Firewall Forward? Looking for feedback on a couple of their STCs. http://thenewfirewallforward.com/linked/tnfwf_horsepower_plus_stc.pdf and their Centri-Lube cam Thanks Quote
mulro767 Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 Wow a 10:1 compression ratio! And some pretty big performance numbers for a 201. I'm impressed and eager to hear from any customers. Quote
carusoam Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 It makes sense...sort of... It worked when the Corvette went from the L98 to LT1 engine in '92 with 10:1 CR pistons... 240 up to 300 hp. The change included improvements in FI, not available in aviation yet... Additional 25 hp would be noticeable in T/O and climb. The longevity numbers will be interesting. Ignition Timing BTDC would be nice to know. CHTs would be nice to know.. Why did they use an un-Mooney graphic in their Mooney performance chart? Ideas that come to mind... Best regards, -a- Quote
Hondo Posted July 10, 2014 Author Report Posted July 10, 2014 Sorry for the question. The BBB gave them an F rating. This EAA forum really unloads on them. http://eaaforums.org/showthread.php?1007-Problems-Dealing-with-The-New-Firewall-Forward-in-Fort-Collins-CO/page4 Quote
carusoam Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 One of the more recent posts on Hondo's EAA forum link... "their engine warranties are not worth the paper they are written on. I have been promised reimbursement for warranty work that was done on my engine two years ago and have never seen a single dime, just a lot of check is in the mail promises. Then when I had a cylinder not pass the annual due to low compression there response is that the excessive cylinder wear is not covered under their warranty. Apparently nothing is covered under their warranty, its simply a piece of paper they give you if you are foolish enough to use this shop. Nothing I can do about it unless I want to litigate, but I want to forwarn as many of my fellow pilots as possible to avoid this shop no matter what price they give you!..." Cylinder compression problem and warranty problem.... Nice combination... A Missile is where you would prefer to be..., -a- 1 Quote
N601RX Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 My experience with them 3 years ago goes along with exactly what the posters on the EAA forum are saying about them, and all I was trying to get them to do was drill a cam with the centrilub STC that I had sent them. All they had to do was drill the cam and I would have paid them. They were supposed to do it and return it to me the next day. It took me over 3 months and getting someone who is based at their field to go over and have a talk with them to get the cam back. It turned out that they don't own the STC and they had not been paying the person who owns it for the paperwork for each cam so he quit providing the STC. Every time I called them, they would either not answer the phone, put me on hold, or tell me that they had just finished it and I should have it in 2 days. Many of the employees left during this time period. Another regular member has a much more recent experience with them. There are also long post on the Beech website about them. Quote
cujet Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 1) I don't have any recent business experience with Firewall Forward. I did have them modify my camshaft back in 2008-9 timeframe. They did a fine job and the work was done in about 3 weeks (if I remember correctly) . Not exactly fast, but not 3 months either. It was a bit of an "odd" deal, as I had to purchase a specific brand of camshaft (genuine lyc or specific aftermarket brand that I can't recall) Then I had to send the camshaft to them for modification. Why they don't stock their own product, or provide one "as needed" is beyond me. 2) 10 to 1 compression: The 177RG guys have extensive experience with the 10 to 1 compression modification in the IO-360 A1B6 (d also) . I have experience with 10 to 1 in a Lyc AEIO 540 mounted in an Extra 300L. The Cessna guys universally like the additional power, better climb and better speeds. I believe most of them have experienced piston ring annealing at some point in the engine's life. This may be due to ring overheating and loss of ring tension. I'm not 100% sure the 10/1 "failures" are clearly understood by the operators of these engines. But, (I believe) ring annealing is the general consensus on the Cardinal forums. Some operators have made it 600 hours. Some operators have made it over 1000 hours before the "tell tale" loss of compression and high oil consumption. I've run 2 different AEIO 540 engines with 10 to 1, using the exact same helicopter pistons, stock angle valve cylinders, rods, cam timing and injectors as our IO360 FF engines do. The first engine failed within 30 hours. With complete loss of compression in the aft 4 cylinders. The 2 forward cylinders were fine. Here is EXACTLY what happened. The install shop ran the engine, without cowling, extensively on the ground. The forward cylinders had plenty of airflow. The center cyls got really hot. The aft cylinders turned blue! The resulting cylinder barrel warpage prevented the rings from sealing. It's as if the steel barrels went from round to waffle! We replaced the bad cylinders and installed new rings. Problem solved. Engine performed like a champ. Many years of abuse later, compression decreased and a re-ring/hone was required. The second engine was constructed similarly. With new ported angle valve cylinders, helicopter pistons, and plenty of other little tweaks. It is tuned to 2850 RPM. It is a MONSTER. With amazing throttle response, smooth operation and considerably more power than stock. It's holding up just fine, does not detonate and is slightly more efficient at cruise speed. Will it make it's 2000 hour TBO without cylinder removal? I don't know. However, after compression loss, a re-ring and hone job seems to be all that is required to keep a 10/1 cylinder healthy. As it does seem it's only a ring issue. Whether it's actually ring annealing (as the Cardinal guys think) or ring wear is not all that important to me. A simple re-ring solves the issue. Clearly, 10 to 1 engines need tight and well engineered baffling. Below are some pics. In particular, take a look at the Lyc cylinder baffle height issue on the forward side of the LH cylinders. OEM's often get this very wrong. And, if not fixed, 10/1 is not going to work for you. Notice the fin depth is nearly zero mid cylinder head. Exactly where OEM's put the baffle. The result is insufficient cooling, especially with 10/1 pistons. Below is my minor alteration to vastly improve this flaw. 1 1 Quote
Mooney65E Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 My experience with them 3 years ago goes along with exactly what the posters on the EAA forum are saying about them, and all I was trying to get them to do was drill a cam with the centrilub STC that I had sent them. All they had to do was drill the cam and I would have paid them. They were supposed to do it and return it to me the next day. It took me over 3 months and getting someone who is based at their field to go over and have a talk with them to get the cam back. It turned out that they don't own the STC and they had not been paying the person who owns it for the paperwork for each cam so he quit providing the STC. Every time I called them, they would either not answer the phone, put me on hold, or tell me that they had just finished it and I should have it in 2 days. Many of the employees left during this time period. Another regular member has a much more recent experience with them. There are also long post on the Beech website about them. I had a similar experience with "The New Firewall Forward"a couple years ago. The sales person (Tom Lawson) was very friendly and eager to serve me during our first phone conversation. He promised a 2 day turn around for the drilling of a Lycoming camshaft which I would have to provide. I overnighted the camshaft to them and called 2 days later. They hadn't started at that point and gave me an excuse that they lost my camshaft or misplaced the paperwork. Every time I'd call, I'd either be ignored or hear some other lie about when they would complete the drilling. It seemed as though Tom was not the favorite person of the guy who acually did the drilling. I called Tom to check for a statis update and would hear background noise which sounded like a crowded tavern (at 11am). I got the run around for several more weeks, but did finally get a drilled cam from them. It was by far one of the most UNPROFESSIONAL dealings with a business I have ever had. My advise would be to steer clear of this company. I for one will not be a repeat customer! Quote
KSMooniac Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 They drilled my cam a couple months ago. I had read the horror stories and was worried about it getting stuck in limbo, and I went so far as to try to verify they are actually doing the work in a timely fashion with no disputes between NFF and the STC holder. The STC holder assured me it would get completed in a timely fashion. It still took an extra week *after* my credit card was charged, which didn't make me happy. Initially they tried to get me to pre-pay (despite their website stating no pre-payments were required), and when they said it was ready I gave them the credit card info over the phone. I think it wasn't even started at that point. Anyway, they finally got it back to me in 2-3 weeks from when I sent it, and it wasn't holding up my engine assembly so that was good enough. I wish the STC holder used a different shop to actually do the work. I think it is a good idea, but of course I won't know how "well" it does for many, many years. It does address one really bad flaw in the Lycoming design, and you cannot get the Lycoming factory to do the mod if you get an engine from them. Quote
BigTex Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 When I saw the title of this thread I was sure it was reference to Tony Bingelis' must have book "Firewall Forward." Guess not... Quote
jetdriven Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 Cujet, that baffle mod would do some good for us IO-360 Mooney owners, its a better solution than the current "piece of silicone baffle material wedged between the head and baffle" mod we currently do. Thats got me thinking about bending some tin Quote
John Pleisse Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 Sorry for the question. The BBB gave them an F rating. This EAA forum really unloads on them. http://eaaforums.org/showthread.php?1007-Problems-Dealing-with-The-New-Firewall-Forward-in-Fort-Collins-CO/page4 This is correct. The STC was sold to only 50-80 201's and Aero's. I flew this engine for 500 hours and ultimately found it no different than a stock engine. Similarly, we had numerous prop balancing problems, vibration issues and sticking valves. Helicopter pistons are for helicopters. PM me Hondo if you need more info. EDIT.... The old FWF was a great OH shop, IMO. The HP Plus STC is a joke. But when in doubt, throw it out. Quote
cujet Posted July 11, 2014 Report Posted July 11, 2014 Cujet, that baffle mod would do some good for us IO-360 Mooney owners, its a better solution than the current "piece of silicone baffle material wedged between the head and baffle" mod we currently do. Thats got me thinking about bending some tin Thanks! I don't have a picture of how the baffle is done on the Extra 300L. It's exactly the same cylinder. But, Extra did it right. They lowered the baffle, to expose the deep fins. In my case, I can't do that due to the air filter assy being part of the baffle. Quote
wiseng Posted August 18, 2014 Report Posted August 18, 2014 Several years ago I had Firewall Forward Field overhaul my first run engine. I had the helicopter pistons put in per the STC. I never did get the oil consumption above 2hrs/Qt, and this was after a couple of complete cylinder rehones. I had the standard pistons put back in. It was quite a hassle and only after threatening to retain an attorney did they agree to pay for the swap. I understand they are under new management but from reading the posts things apparently have not changed for the better. Quote
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