Top Prop Spinner Problem

[Stefanovm]

Today, after the 30+ hours I have flown since purchsing, while cleaning that the spinner, I noticed about a 3+" diameter piece has been lost right next to the blade opening. There is also a stress crack progressing from the lost piece clockwise. In addition, there is a stress crack on the opposite side that appears to be doing the same thing. See attached photos.

I just flew a 6+ hour cross country and did not detect any undue vibrations. I do not remember seeing during either initial pre-flight, at start or at my fuel stop, but the cracks may have started and not have been obvious. Now I am missing this piece and will need to get repaired before further flight.

Hartzell Top Prop Model# HC-C2YR-18FP/F749. Suggestions? Available spinners?

[Stefanovm]

The Prop shop in San Antonio (100+ miles away from my hanger) responded on a Saturday to my e-mail. I am impressed. The airplane needs repair, but at least I am not stuck anywhere. It is in my hanger.

The e-mail does not make me feel better, but I am still impressed with the response.

"Hello Mark,

 This has been a problem for the conversion and there is a service letter addressing the issue.  When I return to the office Monday I'll send you the information and what needs to be done to get you going.  When is your next anticipated flight?

 

Respectfully,

 

Gary Jordan"

[DaV8or]

Oooo... Not good. However, does the prop perform as well as expected? It seems like one of the best props money can buy on paper anyways. If you like it, I would chaulk this up to the price of being an early adopter. I'm sure Hartzel will make it right in the end. On the other hand, if the prop is kind of lame, well then, that's another story...

[Parker_Woodruff]

Don Maxwell said he thinks theres an issue with some spacers...and some people putting them on and some people not putting them on.

[Stefanovm]

The reply from the Hartzell rep seems to indicate it is a known problem. There is also documentation (SB) to address the problem according to the rep's reply to me.  I am hoping that Hartzell will assist in keeping the costs of the repairs minimal to me. That will be the determining factor in my "feelings" about the performance of Hartzell.

I have no way of evaluating the propeller itself. I have not had it long enough. It seems to work as well as any CS I have used in the past (only 800+ complex). More importantly, it seems to give me adequate ground clearance. Considering I fly off of a grass strip, this is a plus to most of the Mooney off of grass drawbacks that I have read.

[Stefanovm]

Hopefully this is not just the first of other problems to come that maybe should have been found in the pe-buy. I wished that I had been able to come up with the funds to purchase a newer model or at least a bit more of the items that I wanted, especially an MSC pre-buy. I would have like items such as better IFR avionics, less years old, etc.

However, for my mission the "E" still seems to be the best. If money was no object I would have a Rocket. Money is too scarce for me, especially on a continuous basis.

Although I had the Mooney inspected by a mechanic who seemed well versed in Mooneys, I am having second thoughts about the wisdom of taking on another used airplane. It still has some sqwauks from me that the mechanic did not either find or consider worth mentioning for a pre-buy. Up to now, the only one that I consider an airworthiness problem is the propeller spinner problem. I did not see it for 30+ hours and at the pre-buy inspection then annual the prop was less than 5 hours since new.

I traded my very easy to work upon and fairly inexpensive C152 for more than I may be able to afford. However, I really appreciate the Mooney payload, speed, and range, on the same fuel burn for several similar trips to the C152 that I have now taken in the Mooney. If I pace my neighbor's Grumann 150HP, I use significantly less fuel than the C152 did on the same trip. He used to slow way down for me, now I slow for him, sometimes. The last time I did not stay slow we had a Piper overtaking us not believing one of us was a Mooney. I had to go back to normal cruise to prove to the Piper I was not some type of copy or more importantly to soothe my feeling that a Piper should not pass me.

I do not see the speeds that I would like to see on this Mooney. They are on the real slow end for a stock "E", closer to 140 kts. Speed is something that a Top Prop is supposed to increase a little. The slower TAS may due to some of the items that the mechanic probably did not think were important for a pre-buy and I know will affect a Mooney's speed. I was hoping to get the speed items corrected soon, but the spinner problem may stall their corrections for a while.

[Stefanovm]

Mostly for Parker,

The 6+ hour included the VMG in Longview. We flew several other places before and after KGGG as the KGGG-07TS part at 2+ hours was only part of the fun weekend. Don actually wandered out and looked at my Mooney in response to another question about something bothering me, exterior on the engine cowling. The missing piece was not obvious at that time. It became obvious in maybe 3 hours worth of flight after that as I am sure that Don's trained eyes would have seen it before me. I am sure that the stress cracks were there, just not obvious.

Bottom line, airplanes need continuous care. I would just rather be flying.

[Gone]

Mark:

I feel for you.

When I bought my E model, my MSC went to hunt for the reason why the former owner's mechanic had welded a crack in one side of the spinner.

It turns out that the previous mechanic had received permission from someone in Transport Canada (our FAA) and then gone ahead with something that Hartzell had not provided any documentation on (for this type of repair).  So my MSC went to Hartzell - and they were very clear.  There did not exist any engineering data to support the welding of any cracks in this spnner. Hartzell would not support the repair.  So we decided to exchange the spinner with a serviceable spare from his shop (short of cash).

Six months later that spinner developed a crack as well, and this caused the unauthorised departure of part of the spinner in flight as I was climbing through 4000' - a piece that was a little bigger than yours.  The bang scared the living daylights out of me and I started planning for an off-airfield approach.  A few minutes later, I requested and received priority for the active runway from the tower.  No need to declare an emergeny, but worrying nonetheless.  In the end, no incident, but the hole in the spinner, and the scratches on the cowl told the story.   A new one was installed during the next annual.  It cost $1,000 Cdn or so.

Last year (two years after the new spinner was installed) my MSC powder coated it during the overhaul.  Safe and looks great.

[Stefanovm]

The picture of your E is why I have one. They look good even on the ground.

I am glad that mine is in my hanger next to my house. It gives me ample pre-flight time, light, and space to look for items like this. I imagined something as you described, when I found the missing piece. I am glad that it was only imagination for me with the piece missing the airplane after hearing how it happened as it did to you. I will always look very close from now on. I have had quite a few inflight problems over the last 40+ years and 2,000+ hours, but fast objects hitting or coming loose from the airplane probably scare me the most for some reason. This was my second one of that type with an alternator belt breaking on my C182, of course at night. I feel as if I unkowingly dodged a bullet this time, almost literally.

Ouch on the cost. I am hoping due to the so few hours on a new installation, Hartzell will help.

There is no obvious weld on mine and it was new with the prop 30+ flight hours and 1 1/2 years ago. Spacers (Don's input via Parker) or/and tightening procedures may be the culprit for this failure in the opionion of this mechanical engineer with a background in maintenance (40+ years). We will see when the service letter documents get to me Monday from the prop rep. Welding a part such as this would always get a thumbs down from me considering physics, materials, and mechanical engineering principles.

Powder coating is always nice to do. Mine is currently polished aluminum. I wonder if cracks would be easier or harder to see with PC? PC is much better than paint for many reasons, but I am uncertain as to its effect on strengthening the basic structure for stress cracking or for visually seeing cracks before an actual failure. I have little true experieince with PC on parts such as these, fast moving and fairly high repeitive stress modes, but have it and like it for more stationary items.

[Parker_Woodruff]

let me know if it is a spacer issue...I want to discuss it in more detail when I see Don next time...my plane's at his shop for a few weeks.

[Parker_Woodruff]

let me know if it is a spacer issue...I want to discuss it in more detail when I see Don next time...my plane's at his shop for a few weeks.

[Stefanovm]

Found this on the Hartzell site. I have reason for hope. At 1 1/2 years and 30+ hours, I definitely fall into  the 1,000 hours or 3 years category.

“What is the warranty on a Top Prop conversion?

Our Top Prop propellers and spinners are warranted against defects in materials and workmanship for 1,000 hours or 3 years, whichever comes first. We also offer a 10 flight hour / 90 day full refund period if you are dissatisfied with the installation of the propeller on your aircraft.”

After this is honored, or not, I will be able to say something pertinent about my Top Prop. I hope that it will be positive.

I note copying and pasting with formatting characters is a challeng for MooneySpace.com. When I find it is a problem, I take the time to convert to plain text then re-paste.

[Gone]

Quote: Stefanovm

The picture of your E is why I have one. They look good even on the ground.

[scottfromiowa]

If the prop/spinner were installed properly then I am sure based on service hours and time since installation the spinner will be replaced at NO CHARGE.  If there was installation that was NOT per the procedure then the installer has responsibility to replace spinner.  It would seem that aviation should have the spinner figured out by now.  (how to manufacture properly with correct materials) to prevent this type of catastrophic failure.  I hope you get a good explanation of why this would/did occur in addition to a replacement so you can be confident in the products performance going forward.  I hope it works out well for you.

[Stefanovm]

Looking at the "updated " manual on line, there is much more to installing it after the date the STC was given to the installer 10/08. There is much more attention paid to washer replacement both with text and figures. Spacers was Don's input and probably true. Since the manual update card was never filled out by the previous owner, also IA, A&P, and installer, he was probably unaware of the methods.

I still hope Hartzell assists with with the replacement if it was an installation problem. The problem does not appear to have been discovered until just as mine was installed 2/09, then the airplane was not flown regularly, less than 2 hours, until I bought it this year 3/10.

See photo of page update. One of about 6.

[Stefanovm]

Parker, I will keep you informed. My E may not have the same limitations as your J.

I read and use the STC Airplane Flight Manual Supplement, see bold below. Unfortunately, my tach it is not placarded appropriately. However, I have been flying according to the supplement.

For M20E, F

Radial Red line (Rated)                              2700 RPM
Green Arc-                                                 2100-2350 RPM
                                                                   & 2550-2700 RPM
Yellow Arc - No conlinuous ops >24· MP   2350-2550 RPM

NOT Permitted, 2500 RPM, MAN PRESS 25.0· (last line)

This is radically different than the current placard and tach stripng, especially the last line and contrary to what a lot of people recommend without researching the flight manual. However, the above is actually what I have practiced in the past 30+ hours, ignoring the inappropriate placarding and other advice.

[Stefanovm]

More data. My bulkhead looks more like the attached photo of the manual page. It does not have the detailed spacer notes. However, the actual spinner (photo of spinner) is much more pointed than the one in the manual, so maybe a mismatch.

[scottfromiowa]

Am I to understand that you can't operate with this prop at 25 squared?

[Stefanovm]

Correct, on the E and F only! That is what the STC AFMS_011007_2 says. You can run 2500x24". At altitude <24" is all I get anyhow. I climb out at 2600x25" or max". I wait until MP < 24" due to altitude and come back to between 2350 and 2550 depending on other items for cruise. Sometimes I just stay at 2600 at altitude. Except for takeoff, I rarely use 2600+, which is allowed on the Top Prop per the AFSM.

The A through G except the E & F have a different AFMS_011007_1. The _3 is for the J, I believe. I have not looked at or remembered any of the others as I do not have them.

My hand made placard reads just as the AFMS recommends:

Radial Red line (Rated)                                 2700 RPM
Green Arc-                                                     2100-2350 RPM & 2550-2700 RPM (different from previous placard)
Yellow Arc - No continuous ops >24”•MP     2350-2550 RPM
NOT Permitted, 2500 RPM, MAN PRESS 25.0”

[Stefanovm]

Here is the press release:

PIQUA, Ohio –July 23, 2007 – Hartzell Propeller Inc. announced today that it has received an STC to install a newly designed, two- bladed 74" diameter blended airfoil Top Prop performance conversion kit onto Mooney M20A-G and M20J models. Hartzell optimized the new blended airfoil design to deliver greater cruise performance at higher airspeeds. Flight tests with an M20F have confirmed an increase of 2-4 knots in normal cruise over the original Hartzell 2- bladed propeller while maintaining equivalent climb performance. The improvement in cruise was achieved at the expense of a slightly longer take-off roll that has been observed at about an extra 3%.

"Tests also confirmed that performance levels increased along with power settings and airspeed levels. So the higher the airspeed and the higher the power settings the greater the performance improvement that we observed in cruise levels," said Mike Trudeau, Director of Hartzell’s Top Prop Performance Conversion program.

Restrictive placards on the A-D, G and J aircraft have been removed entirely while the restriction on the E and F models has been reduced to simply no continuous operation above 24" of manifold between 2350 and 2550 RPM.

On all models of the aicraft, the repetitive inspections required by AD2006-18-15 have been eliminated.

The new Mooney Top Prop kit comes complete with the propeller, a highly-polished spinner, STC paperwork and the exclusive Hartzell Plus Three™ warranty, which delivers a full three years or 1000 hours of coverage, at a list price of $6,995.

For more information about the new Mooney kit or any other Top Prop performance conversion, visit the Top Prop section of the Hartzell Web site at www.hartzellprop.com, or call toll free (800) 942-7767 or (937) 778-5726. Fax your request to Hartzell at (937) 778-4215 or email topprop@hartzellprop.com.

With more than 14,000 kits sold, Hartzell Top Prop Propeller Conversions offer pilots one of the easiest and most economical methods for improving the value of their aircraft. 60 different Beech, Cessna, Commander, Diamond, Mooney, Piper, and SOCATA kits are currently available, making the Top Prop family the largest and most complete propeller conversion offering in the world.

[DaV8or]

I wonder what's so different about the E and F but doesn't effect the J? Is it the engine or the cowling?

[Stefanovm]

I don't know. I should be getting some more information from the prop shop this morning. I doubt that it will address the differences, but if I talk to them, I will try to remember to ask.

[Stefanovm]

I was so elated when Gary at Jordan Propellers said he would fill out the warranty paperwork, I forgot to ask about the J difference. That was my "guess".

Gary says I should have new spinner before my next flight on Saturday. They have modified the mounting to take care of this problem. I am pleased with my Top Prop experience.

[Parker_Woodruff]

That's right...Don's hypothesis was there was a spacer/washer terminology issue.  I guess he was right.

[Stefanovm]

Actually, this one was manufactured and shipped with no support in the pointy part. This allowed it to wobble. The one that is coming has a pointy end support piece in addition to the prop bulkhead secure points. Somehow they missed notifying the previous owner, probably because he never sent in the card from the front part of the manual to Hartzell. Looking at the newer manual, reference is made to it and on how to adjust its fit.