pinerunner

Here's another site http://www.donmaxwell.com/publications/MAPA_TEXT/M20-202%20-%20Eight-Second%20Ride/EIGHT_SECOND_RIDE.HTM His publications are pretty good reading.

My father did a fair amount of rebuilding and I bucked a bunch of rivets. I think a repair involving reskinning by by a top mechanic (at working with sheet metal) is as good as new. This is assuming he's done his home work and used the correct grade and thickness of sheet aluminum and that everything inside has been well inspected and repaired as needed also. I'd also not allow cherry rivets which we tried to stay away from in cases that mattered structurally; that's something you can check for your self when looking the plane over. If the riveting were badly done its easy to see on visual inspection. I don't buy the idea that if a plane has any damage history followed by repair that it should just be written off. I would want to get a look at how it was done. I'll also admit that I might be parroting opinions from thirty years ago and the original source is no longer available to speak for himself.

The condensation thing is just a little more complicated than what's been implied so far. The notion that's been missing is this. Condensation forms faster on colder surfaces when you get down near the dew point. You don't want your plane to be the coolest thing in the hangar and the metal plane tends to radiate heat away faster and have a lower heat capacity (so it cools more for the same heat loss) than the concrete or asphalt floor. Just a little extra heat may be all takes to make your Mooney stop being a condensation magnet, even in an unheated, non air-conditioned hangar. Lucky me. I've got an electric outlet next to my M20E and they don't even charge me for the electric bill (though they might think about it if they knew everything I was thinking of doing with it).

One more thought occurred to me with respect to this ground running business (mainly for planes that have set a spell). I remember reading and have observed that if you fill the oil up to the max it tends to use up the the first couple of quarts faster. I don't think oiling through the normal oil channels could cause this. That leaves me assuming that the crankshaft actually dips into the oil in the sump and flings in around, making a LOT more oil in the oily fog which then goes out the vent pushed by blow-by gases (you can't have zero blow-by). I'm thinking I want it at 6 quarts if I have been flying it (to not use oil so fast and not dirty up my belly and need to clean it so much) a lot but if it's been sitting I'll top it off and be glad to have to wash the belly. The hope is that the camshaft would be getting hit with more oil sooner, minimizing the time its getting less than ideal lubrication.

Its easy to agree with you. I got my old M20E because I had read about Mooney's efficiency. I wasn't disappointed. The other thing I like to do with airplanes is bush flying and for that I'd like a C-180 but those are much more expensive and if I did that I might as well build a camp off in some isolated place so even more expensive, both in time and money. Perhaps some kind of time-share that would include a hunting-fishing camp in some secluded place and a cessna 180 on floats would be the ticket. For airport flying and getting my instrument rating though its Mooney 100%. I like being able to go fast or slow down and burn less per mile than a 150.

Helpful article. Thanks.

This is the first I'd heard of Centri-Lub cams so I went to their web-site. It's an STC'd modification to the camshaft that apparently delivers oil right where you want it on the camshaft lobes right away after start up. You've got my attention and I want to know more. I think this might deserve a thread of its own. Anyone else with Centri-Lube cam? Any bad experiences? Metal to metal contact on moving surfaces in an engine should never happen. Here the link. Makes good reading. http://thenewfirewallforward.com/linked/centri_lube_info.pdf

Fresh oil just before putting it away is an excellent piece of common sense that maybe needs to be more common. Unfortunately one winter I thought I was going to fly it one more time and then had a month of bad weather. So it sat with old oil.

The issue is this. Do you really recoat the camshaft with oil if you just idle it? What I've read from Deakins and Bush is that there is only "windage" getting oil onto the camshaft lobes during regular usage. That's an oily fog inside the engine when its running that gets a little oil on everything. It's why a little blow-by turns into oil on your belly coming out the vent. No little holes pumping oil onto the lobes. A good oil with the right additives leaves a very thin film that sticks to the cam lobes even after most of the oil has drained slowly off and if you let it sit a long time that's all you have on first startup. Just turning it over by hand will wipe that off and undo that protection without generating any windage to get a new layer on so the "turn it by hand" routine may be OK for everything except the camshaft lobes. Running it at idle presumably doesn't generate good enough windage to oil the camshaft lobes well. I suppose it does generate some windage but is it enough? Lycomings have their camshaft on the top so it might be expected to be the last thing to get windage oil on it. Running it up to speed without flying gives poor cooling. So the best advice as far as I can tell is to either fly it frequently or pickle it properly and leave it alone. Its hard to prove these things since the camshaft is hard to get at and examine. Who's going to run it in different ways and then open it up to check the camshaft?

Curtis Air in Pittsfield, Maine, 2B7. Not an MSC but really did their homework when they worked on mine. Three Mooneys worked on that I know of. Pittsfield is a well off small Maine town with a construction company that works all over New England. As a result Curtis Air works on a wide variety of aircraft from seaplanes (lots of Cessna 180's) to a bunch of twin Beech. As far as I know they're the go-to service center for vintage Beech D-18s servicing planes from all over New England. A few fabric aircraft as well (tubular structure). Broad experience, attention to detail, and they don't pad the bill.

I guess I just lucked out in this regard. I was shopping around for a nearby airport to hangar my new bird to be and the small town airport nearby, Pittsfield (2B7), had low rates for unheated hangar ($150/mo). While I was there poking around there one fellow I was talking to who had flown in from a few airports away to get his annual done told me why he had come so far. I went with the hangar and my first annual was just $2000 plus the cost of installing a new EI UBG-16 which I had ordered. The owner has been in aviation all his life (his father ran the airport before him), and went to college for his mechanics training. While not an MSC he had done his homework on a previous Mooney and rented the adjustment tools to get the manual landing gear right. Curtis Air is also the goto place for a couple of old Beech D-18s one of which flies in from two states away because they like the work and expertise. I can save money on the next annual by taking off all the inspection covers myself (they charge for that time apparently). I'm not depending on just them to head off possible future corrosion problems; I'm also learning as much as possible myself and this year installing Bruce Jaegar's Spatial interior to make inspection easier. To make it even better my instrument instructor hooked me up with an older semi-retired mechanic with a pretty broad experience who's willing to help me with special projects and let me turn my own wrench a bit for just $25/hr (he doesn't have to pay secretaries). I don't believe it has to be an MSC but finding good mechanics isn't trivial. If you keep your personal "radar" turned on and make the right connections you can fly a Mooney and not get screwed. If you're going to fly and own a vintage plane you should get involved and as intimate with it mechanically as practical. It's part of the fun too. Having to pay for their education in resealing your tank would make me livid. I bet you're not their only dissatisfied customer.

I've got an E. The front seats have the same room as the F I've heard. I've also read that the E's climb faster, mine certainly gets up there and I get comments about how much faster I get up there than the other planes at my home base. I'm very happy with my E but very rarely do I have anyone to put in the rear seat. I'm also short so I probably give the rear seat more room than some other pilots. Despite my 29" inseam (pants) I have no trouble reaching the pedals and with one notch of forward travel left (on the seat) am set up perfect. Love my M20E. From what I've read the C's are only a little slower and the engine management is easier. Cylinders cost half as much when overhaul time comes for a C. No worries about hot starts. I think I could be happy with a C but too late! I'm hooked on my E.

The Mooney Wing is one long piece. It bolts to the fuselage and I've read it uses four bolts. Naturally you have to disconnect the fuel lines, gear, ailerons, flaps, electrical and maybe something else I'm forgetting. That's true for all small planes. But other small GA planes have the two sides separately removable. Two strong men might manage to unbolt a cessna left or right wing and carry it away. I've helped do that and I think we had three. With the Mooney you'll need some kind of cradles that will allow you to lift the fuselage away from the one big wing. I'd spend the money to get someone who's really geared up for it. Unless you want to spend the time reinventing it for yourself. If the price is right and you REALLY like what you see in the fuselage, I'd buy it, pay to store it, go find the replacement wing and have them deliver and swap it in. I'd try to get myself and my favorite local A & P in on the action. Then you get the fun of flying your new acquisition home with a funny paint job. I wouldn't bother with an older vintage like my E model since there are great bargains anyway but with a J if the price were good enough I might bite the bullet and take on the adventure. Do you like mechanic stuff almost as much as flying? I think there are pretty good deals on J models too if you're patient.

The Mooney Wing is one long piece. It bolts to the fuselage and I've read it uses four bolts. Naturally you have to disconnect the fuel lines, gear, ailerons, flaps, electrical and maybe something else I'm forgetting. That's true for all small planes. But other small GA planes have the two sides separately removable. Two strong men might manage to unbolt a cessna left or right wing and carry it away. I've helped do that and I think we had three. With the Mooney you'll need some kind of cradles that will allow you to lift the fuselage away from the one big wing. I'd spend the money to get someone who's really geared up for it. Unless you want to spend the time reinventing it for yourself.

I think its pretty common knowledge that the skin plays a structural role in the wing. My dad did aircraft rebuilding and that came up a number of times. A metal winged aircraft can have less beefy wing spars since the skins are adding strength whereas fabric doesn't. Send a note to the manufacturer to get backup if you need it. The shop should have insurance to pay for them making it right with you.

Cheer up, Once you get through the purchasing process with a prebuy that gives you good peace of mind a vintage M20 series will give you the most performance for your money. I love the way my 63 M20E flys. Practically fell in love with it. There wil be maintenance issues of course but they will be worth it. As long as you're not carrying big loads or lots of passengers you're looking at the right plane for a fun x-country machine.

Have you talked to Don about it? Some mechanics make house calls and maybe Don or one of his minions would look at it directly if you paid for the airline tickets, etc. Sounds like you're OK spending a bit up front for peace of mind down the road and you've picked your mechanic for the long term.

I think the high oil temperatures bother me the most in your situation. I wonder if something could be blocking air flow to and through your oil cooler. A problem with air flow inside the cowling inside the cowling might have a bigger affect on airspeed than you would think at first. At any rate oil temperatures outside of acceptable range ought to be addressed soon.

I like this reply because of what I've heard/read about problems right after mechanical work. I would not pay the most for 0 SMOH since it would leave me to do the shakedown and discover .. whatever and then get it fixed. Tough to say just where I think the "sweet spot" is maybe 100-500 hours. Love to see a bunch of experienced Mooney mechanics chime in on this. I can't say which will minimize the impact on your wallet. If you just want to get out ASAP you'll probably have to resign yourself to taking a hit. Last I knew it was a buyers market. For me the question would be: Do you want to be involved in a major mechanical project (working with a good mechanic) and the subsequent shakedown or do you just want to get out and move on? David

What a tease!

My calculations got these numbers too. Hanks gets to 7500 first of course but doesn't make up the difference before Levels off and accelerates to the same speed and ends up a mile behind.

I lost a mag just once. I was a student pilot taking off with a J-3 cub from a 2000 ft strip with trees at the end. Instead of clearing them easily I cleared them not so easily. After taking it around the pattern and landing I did another mag check and I had lost one. Made me glad I had two mags. I bet during the early years of flying they had a few unfortunate incidents berfore they decided duel, independant, mags were a must. At that same strip the C150 that was considered more "upscale" to rent wasn't able to clear the trees by much with both me and my slightly chubby instructor. Neat thing about that cub was it was the same plane my father had first owned and soloed a couple of decades before.

I think it's still a buyers market. It was when I got my M20E 3 years ago. So if you walk away you''ll be coming across another good deal soon enough. Its easy to get zeroed in on a particular plane and forget there are plenty of others out there. Have fun!

It tickled me to see your M20E still has the old guppy-mouth. That cured me of upgrade envy.

I've been sold on this for a while now. I'm putting spatial in my M20E next spring. I'm even thinking about flying out to Bruce's place to do it though not sure about that. Along with a new Airtex carpet. I'll have to put up with seats that look awful next to the interior for a while I guess. For those in the know I think Spatial interior will add value to these older planes. I REALLY like the idea of easier inspection.