Stephen

Great writeup Vance, thanks. I have to do this after a few other issues are cleared up and it will be quite helpful.

Hi ABCDEF, I just have the plane stored in the hangar for now. Waiting till after taxes this year to see where I'm at. Sorry for not replying, I have been in India for a few weeks.

Thanks Yetti; good to know on the GE's thanks for the tip. The disks are split so they need to get replaced.

No, I don't know any gotchas about my engine. Just when I looked at the higher end engine shops... assuming overhaul is done completely with the full accessory treatment etc... It looked to consistently be comping about > 30K when considering the engine removal/install.

I'm thinking 5 K on the annual, because I know I need: LG Shocks, LG re-build per recent thread about having castle nut hitting one of the links, rigging, Nose gear truss is bent due to someone using a tug (not me, but bent over tolerance), I have an oil leak in the back accessory...who knows what that is going to be, but the rebuild may make that moot, needed new hoses, landing lights are apparently non-TSO "KC" lights...and who knows what else they will fine. I guess I'm paranoid a bit on pricing, but maintenance bills seldom seem to disappoint in my experience. The annual flat fee where I started it at first is $1700, then + for any MX. I figured that between the show disks, nose gear truss and annual, I am already almost to 5 K+

Thanks Brad, great advice. Here are my engine/airframe times at time of purchase: 3856-TTAF 1330-SMOH / TTE Unknown (1990 Firewall Fwd overhaul) 179-STOH w/New Factory Cylinders (2009) 81-SPOH / TTP Unknown (2012 – Overhauled Hub)

Hi Mj, I absolutely expected to be upside down, just not to outlay almost 2/3+ cost of the aircraft in reparative MX (assuming 30AMU fully burdened OTD costs for overhaul) out of pocket in the first year.... and I still haven't had the first annual.... yikes! I don't think this is remotely typical... at least from what I have read. I paid for a 1.7AMU, Pre-purchase, which definitely could have been better (see "MSC" stuff below), but the more expensive issues that have caused the financial MX expenditure bubble are post purchase component failures and now the metal in the oil filter. I tried to buy conservative... wanted a "J" but went for an "F" with a lower time engine and solid IFR including ADS-B panel etc etc....precisely so I wouldn't have to eat the install price of new upgrades...also had almost 2x the recommended 10AMU in MX budget allocated. The MSer's recommendations on Jewell super helpful... I hope that will ultimately be more affordable. I very much appreciate. your guys help, advice and encouragement. Engine aside, and as someone who loved to fly my F...when it flew, I do think that getting a deal by buy an older model is becoming increasingly (read *VERY*) risky/dicey, with overall airframe systems wearing on these 40-50 year old airframes. The economics to repair (items that may/may-not get caught in pre-purchase) can quickly put you into and beyond the price of aircraft that are much newer, better equipped and in better repair. Those considering any aircraft purchase....particularly the older modes, would be best advised to take @gsxrpilot 's model and take a year plus to research *every option on the market*...save even more $$$ all the while and have more like a $30K mx stash fund...definitely not 10K...I thought that sounded low, budgeted more, and I still got hosed! I think, that it is almost impossible for a buyer to really understand the mx state of an aircraft in which they were not personally, intimately involved in its history, w/o taking it to a very reputable MSC. A seller not wanting to do a reputable MSC for a pre-purchase would be a trip wire and instant walk away point for me. Run and don't look back. Are there independent ... highly Mooney savvy .... A&P's Absolutely (@sabremech @M20Doc,) but if you haven't (as a new buyer, new to the Mooney environment) taken that "year" (per above) to acquaint yourself with them, it is too expensive to not mitigate risk by having a ringer MSC to do the pre-buy. You may get lucky (lol, PT Barnum moment about to happen), but it is absolutely your financial (_!_) if you aren't. And consider, even the best pre-buy wound't (necessarily) protect you from some (practically) un-inspectable gotchas like post-purchase <expensive system> failures like making metal after the x oil changes, deep spar corrosion under fuel tank sealant. etc etc..... One thing is absolutely for sure, MS is gold. .. SH

Thanks, I'll look into this one....history is key for sure.

Thanks Anthony, always appreciate your thoughts.

Thanks Clarence, that is informative; the mechanic sent the oil and filter off to analysis. I don't have the lab report yet but your link is very helpful to quantify how to deal with metal in the filter.

Understood, I am proud of it, but even as an optimist, this line of issues is just becoming overwhelming, leaving me to reluctantly consider that aviation *is* for those who do have stupid money. I do pretty well, earning wise, but this burn rate seems far out of scale with ownership norms (remember this is just the first year) and is a real attention getter that follows a string of frustrations over the years (long story not to bore anyone with) in trying fly in a way that supports my business activities. Anyway, one thing I can say is, wherever this "lands" you are an **Incredible** bunch of guys (& gals); bless you all!

thanks guys I appreciate your thoughts. My dream would be to ID an M20 with a compatible engine that has had a totaling due to airframe damage that I could buy the FWF elements in good condition, w/ logs and recently overhauled. It is asking a lot, but who knows, I could actually use some good luck for a change.

Situation: IA just started my first post-purchase annual, and his first task to change oil......and found "significant" metal in the filter. Understanding that....when all is said and done.... an engine rebuild, which this essentially mandates, is going to be $30-40AMU fully burdened with the fees to remove/reinstall engine and deal with norms of component/accessory/hose replacement. That doesn't count dealing with whatever is found in the first annual ...figuring $3-6 K. My first three oil changes were clean on filter metal. Engine probably has about 900 hours on a Firewall Forward rebuild in the early 1990's. Because fuel instrumentation and voltage failed soon after purchasing the aircraft I put in CIES and and EDM 900. Due to that and various other maintenance items, I have put in around 12-15K into the aircraft onto which the downpayment of $25K on the note of $67,500 and adding in a rebuild cost, and annual still to be done, the first year out of pocket costs would have me exceeding the cost of the aircraft. I think the only hope I have to salvage the thing from fire-sale/scrap is to find a serviceable engine in the 10-15AMU range ... installed LOL...I don't know if it is possible/advisable because I can't drop that and end up with another junk engine...it is already a financial bloodbath as it is. Basically my other option is to put it up for sale as-is. I like the Mooney but am deeply regretting the day I got it. Any suggestions (suck it up and overhaul is not mathmatically possible). Thoughts?

Thanks Vance, appreciate the detailed write-up. Would be interested to get costs for all parts/machining when said and done. Unfortunately I have run into an issue with my engine (metal in filter) that trumps this and has me grounded indefinitely and may have my plane out of service pending sale due to the 30-40AMU required to rebuild, I canceled my annual and, unless I can find a cheap, serviceable IO-360-A1A will put the plane in a hangar pending sale.

Scottish ....did ya celebrate Burns night on Thursday ? I made my first Haggis

Well, you could just slap this on a Mite and then be the answer to your own question: https://www.ebay.com/itm/350-horsepower-Aircraft-Chevy-LS1-Engine/112770773253?hash=item1a41a97105:g:A-IAAOSwoRBaZqaA&vxp=mtr

Agreed I agree, would like to know what your findings are. In the past (e.g. on a piper Arrow) the process to see if & which bushings are worn, I have *securely* (4 stability points per service manual) jacked up plane and *carefully* (very low amplitude) shake of the gear to see if it has play in bushings. DMAX was the one that indicated that they suggest that sometimes shimming the baby shoe can be used to deal with the clearance issue. Would be interesting (assuming bushings are tight) to see if there was a way to measure geometry at key points in gear to see if there is deflection (from a hard landing or whatever).

"thumbs up"

"... For what it's worth, I'm not particularly comforted by the idea there might be more clearance with the weight off the wheels. That would just mean every takeoff and landing generates an additional scraping event. As jetdriven points out, it doesn't take much rubbing to damage the landing gear truss...." Agreed, needs solved.

The baby shoe is this thing: if you look at it in your wheel well it looks kind of like a baby shoe. It is part "13" in the series below.

We adjusted the shim under the “baby shoe” so that they barely clear, the A&P that did it said that they should have positive clearance when not on the ground but I’ll look when we get it jacked up (my annual is supposed to start Monday).

That was my answer during flight training when instructor said “throttle is stuck at mid power; cable just fell off the damn thing. How are you going to land!??” I said short final and switch off. He was like NOPE if you need to restart you can have a buildup of fuel (if mixture not on cutoff) and kaboom. Mixture also can give you somewhat finer pulse control because of ability to lean to rough but not quite cutoff versus binary off/on that starter switch does. Also ergonomically easier to leave start switch on and just fool with one knob for modulated pulses of power. We tried it and it works pretty well... definitely get you to the runway made position if you were under sufficient power when cable breaks

BTW, If the throttle cable comes off in the air use mixture as a second, crude throttle.it should allow boosts of power for landing purposes and the engine should relight as long as windmilling

Just to add into the library of responses to this, on my 1969 F model, I have a microswitch on the base of the throttle quadrant that rides the bottom base of the throttle handle metal structure. If you pull the Throttle, Prop and Mixture caps and unscrew the plastic covers around the quadrant you can get to it. Looking down through the top, you can see the switch forward of and adjacent to the lower extremity of the throttle arm. I didn't see any adjustment other than to *Gently* tweak (I used a pair of hemostats) the metal arm that mechanically rides the throttle. The switch doesn't seem to have a slotted mount either on the microswitch body or on the metal plate that it screws in to so that the whole switch position relative to the throttle can be tuned. I jacked up the plane per the service manual, raised the gear ( Master ON, Area CLEAR, Gear Handle Up, then I had to *****gently*** blow into the pitot, ***slowly** raising pressure until the gear airspeed switch activated {around 60 indicated) the gear circuit). Then I adjusted the arm to bring the warning horn activation to approximately the 10" MP throttle position).

I am back and for the between Hannibal, MO (KHAE) (Home) and Rogers, AR (KROG) (Work). I "think" my '69 "F" is similar dimensionally to a J/201 w/t the exception of the windshield slope.