Bob - S50

Notice how the sawtooth is cyclical and regular? If you'll watch Mike Busch's webinar or read this article of his: http://www.sportaviationonline.org/sportaviation/201008#pg109 I think you may have an exhaust valve that is about to fail. If I were you I would not fly the airplane until I have a good mechanic borescope that cylinder and take a close look at the exhaust valve. I'll bet you have an asymmetric pattern on the valve face as mentioned in the article. Good luck, Bob

If in doubt, ask Mike Busch, but here is my ...opinion... 1. CHT's and EGT's did not get that high, and EGT's don't really matter anyway. 2. Both times it looks like the engine was nicely warmed before takeoff since the CHT's were over/around 300F so I would not think rapid warm up would be a problem. 3. Since you operate out of SGU and the field elevation is almost 3000', I would think a fuel flow as low as 16.5 GPH would be normal/acceptable (but still higher than he had). If he does that at sea level the results could be totally different. 4. At 3000', you can only generate about 90% of rated power anyway so altitude gives you some protection. 5. I believe burnt valves are usually a result of poorly seated valves, and power setting should not affect that. 6. However, running lean like that would tend to cause peak pressure to occur closer to TDC and put more stress on the pistons/rods/bearings. However, CHT is supposed to be our best indicator of peak pressure and the CHT's, again, did not get that high. With that said... 1. I agree with you, regardless of what others say. We have our JPI set to alarm at a CHT of 400F, and I try to keep it under 380F. I wouldn't want to operate a car engine at red line RPM and I don't want to operate my Mooney engine near red line CHT either. 2. I would ask him what the hell he is thinking? Maybe he has a good reason for it (doubt it). Maybe he isn't using full power for takeoff (dumb). 3. Unless he can convince you he has a good reason for doing that, slap him up side the head. Depending on how your partnership is set up, get the other partner to join with you and implement a penalty plan. Anybody who takes off with less than XX GPH fuel flow owes $XXX to the engine fund on top of any other charges. If the engine gets trashed on a particular flight, and it is found the FF was low, that person will pay for any and all repair work. Nothing talks like money. 4. It also looks like he does not know how to use the vernier on the mixture. All his fuel flow changes come in big discrete jumps like he is pushing/pulling the mixture rather than screwing it in and out. How old is this partner? Too old to learn new tricks? 5. Maybe you and the other partner can force him to get some dual with you two or a CFI with emphasis on (as mentioned by others) a flow/checklist, especially to include mixture setting prior to takeoff. While I've got lots of hours, I'm still relatively new to GA flying and trying to develop my own flows. I'm trying to use: 1-2-2-2 for takeoff: 1 = fuel tank selected that has enough fuel. Move up to 2 = Trim and Flaps set. Move up again to 2 = Mixture and Prop set. Move over to 2 = Lights and Boost pump on. THEN I can push the power up for takeoff. G F P after takeoff. Gear up. Flaps up. Pump off. GG FF PP for landing (as opposed to GUMPS or GUMPF). Gas (fuel tank), Gear (down), Flaps (set), Fuel (mixture set), Prop (full forward), Pump (on). Good luck, Bob

I use the SavvyAnalysis.com website. You can upload, store, and read your data for free. If you decide you need help, you can pay them to look at it for you. Bob

Maybe it is the angle of the dangle? If it eventually showed full, that tells me it eventually floated so it probably is not a bad float. Have you checked to see if the float floats as you add fuel? If not, maybe the angle it hangs at creates just enough binding that it won't float on its own. However, using a string you were able to create enough pull to overcome the binding so it worked. The other possibility would be if it is hanging at an angle the prevents proper internal contact. Using the string may have pulled it over to a position that made the contact again. Just thinking out loud. Bob

Our group bought a plane last year that sat in a hangar in northern CA for 10 years. It was worked on by LASAR (who we bought it from). We flew the plane for 25 hours then did an oil analysis. Not unexpectedly ALL metals were high. We had figured after sitting that long there would be surface corrosion almost everywhere, but sitting in a pretty dry warm climate we were not too worried about serious problems. We flew it another 25 hours and changed the oil again. All metals were normal. Three more subsequent oil changes have also come back normal. I can see it either way as recommended by others. Check it now if you want, but expect high readings. Or, fly it at least 10 hours to give it time to work off most of the surface corrosion, change the oil, check the filter, then fly it 25 hours and get the oil checked. If you have high metal counts at that point then you might have a problem. Congratulations and have fun! Bob

Just a small point. It really doesn't matter which cylinder EGT gets hottest. What matters is which one peaks first or last as you lean the engine (depending on whether you want to run ROP or LOP). EGT is not a reliable indicator of how lean a cylinder is running. That's probably what you meant, but not the way I read it. Bob

We had a similar gauge in ours but it also had OAT on it. We got rid of it and installed a JPI EDM 730. EI and Insight also make good monitors. What the EGT does is not nearly as important (almost not important at all) as what the CHT does, and with the factory setup you can only see what one of the 4 cylinders is doing... and it may not even be the hottest. With that said all I can suggest is: 1. Ignore it. Pretend you don't have one. Just lean until it runs a little rough then richen to smooth it out or... 2. If you really want to know which cylinder is the leanest on that day with that power setting, and you want to run ROP... a. Start with #1 and lean until it peaks. b. Go to #2 and lean a bit more. If the EGT goes up it was still ROP if it goes down it was LOP. c. Pick the leanest of the two depending on what you found in step b. d. Re-lean that cylinder to peak EGT. e. Go to #3 and lean some more. f. Pick the leanest of the two and lean to peak. g. Go to #4 and lean some more. h. The leanest of the two is your leanest cylinder. i. You can then richen to your desired ROP setting. 3. If you want to run LOP and you want to know which is richest that day... do the same as above, but instead of picking the leanest cylinder each time, pick the richest. Once you find the richest you can lean however much you choose. Once you get it set, I wouldn't bother looking at it anymore unless I changed power settings. I'd be looking at the one CHT indication you have instead. Bob

I have not seen it personally, but here is something from the troubleshooting/diagnosic section of our engine monitor manual: CHT more than 500°, EGT normal. Adjacent EGT may be low... Leaking exhaust gasket blowing on CHT probe.... Look for white powder around cylinder to determine leak area....

One other possibility is a small exhaust leak from the #1 or #3 cylinder with the exhaust blowing onto the CHT probe, giving a false reading. Bob

Good old fashioned pilotage just like they used to do it in the olden days before navaids. Study the heck out of the TAC before you go, find some good ground references to keep you out of trouble, and keep your head out of the cockpit. Or you could ask Seattle approach for vectors through/around their airspace. Have fun, Bob

Here is a reference I found in another thread: http://72.10.105.106/tms/misc/MAPAMooneyManual.pdf I have the manual on my computer and the 'by the numbers' section gives configuration and power settings for all models. Bob

We have a KRA10 that was removed from our aircraft in May. It was working when removed. I've attached a photo of it. Let me know if you are interested. Bob Patch

Thanks again to all for the input. Bob

When we got our plane we found that it would quickly spit out everything over 6 qts (8 qt capacity). Messed up the bottom of the plane too. We now keep it filled to between 5 and 6 qts. Can't remember which one, but in one of Mike Busch's webinars I think he even says it is quite normal and acceptable to only fill the engine to about 3/4 of capacity. Bob

Thanks to all of you. Ours is at the bottom of the stack below the audio panel and the GPS. I'm not sure how cooling air from a fan could be forced over the top to help cool it. That's why I was wondering. Bob

I don't find the useful load to be that crappy. Every time I look, it comes out pretty favorable vs other types of aircraft. While the Bonanza or 182RG can carry more weight, they also burn more fuel. That means to fly the same distance, they have to carry more fuel which brings their true useable payload down closer to ours. And after all, it isn't about how far you can carry a tank of fuel, it is how much you can carry from point A to point B. Besides, if I'm going to put 4 people in the plane, I'm not sure all of them will want to sit there that long. While I may only have a full fuel payload of 587 pounds, if I limit myself to 4 hours of cruise and leave 9.3 gallons behind I can carry 646#. Three hour limit and I can carry 700 pounds. Two hours of cruise and it becomes 754 pounds. And that is all with a 10 gallon reserve and 2 gallons of contingency fuel. And in reality, all those number should be 8 or 9 pounds higher because I will have burned off that much fuel during STTO. Rather than limit myself to 2740, I'm willing to start up weighing 2749 and be down to the limit when I get airborne. Bob

1978 M20J Useful load: 960 Fuel capacity: 64 gallons/373 pounds (100LL is 5.82#/gallon, not 6 pounds) FF payload: 587# Theoretical max range (no reserve) -1.5 gal for STTO, climb to 9500' @110k, cruise at 9.3 GPH/155k: 994nm Don't plan to fly more than about 600 - 650 without a pit stop.

I didn't see anything about this in the archives so I'll ask. I apologize if it is a repeat. For those of you that have a KNS80, do you have a cooling fan for it? Our DME died and I've now read a couple places that the DME section gets pretty hot and needs a cooling fan. I'm just wondering if it really does or if King and the repair shops are saying that to cover their back ends. If it really needs the fan, I'd hate for us to pay for repair and have it burn out again. Thanks, Bob

You might look at the Dynon D1 or D2 (both under $1500). Since the are portable and not attached to the plane, there is no installation cost and no paperwork to do. While they are not TSO'd, the D1 is my next planned purchase. It will provide backup attitude, ground speed, GPS altitude, GPS rate of climb, ground track, turn rate, and skid indication. I'll plug it into the USB adapter most of the time. If I get a complete power failure, the units have their own battery which is supposed to last up to 4 hours. Should be plenty to get me to VFR conditions (when combined with my tablet) so I can land. While it would not be legal for IFR, it would sure make partial panel a lot easier.

"The Piper Cub is the safest airplane in the world; it can just barely kill you." (Attributed to Max Stanley, Northrop test pilot) ... and ... "A helicopter doesn't fly, it just beats the air into submission." (unknown)

We have an Aerospace Logic FL202 in our plane and it works well. Just over $600 in parts. Bob

Par, When you look for your new J, here are a couple things to consider. 1. Rainman is correct. It will probably be cheaper in the long run to buy a plane that already has the equipment you want. However, you may have a hard time finding one that has exactly what you want. There will be some compromise involved. Whatever you buy, make sure it has a good engine monitor in it either when you buy it or after you modify it. 2. I also agree with Bob_Belville. While the GSN430w is a capable piece of equipment, it is no longer produced and I don't know how much longer it will be supported. If you plan on using it for IFR, I'd agree you should look for the GTN650 or 750 (or other manufacturer equivalent). 3. Three items we looked at when we were looking for our J that you might want to consider: a. On the '77 model, the fuel selector valve is between the pilot's feet. On the '78 they moved it to the floor between the seats. Much easier to reach. b. On the '77 model we looked at, the power controls were levers. On the '78 they were push/pull with verniers for prop and mixture. We thought that would make it easier for fine adjustments. c. Ask about useful load. We found planes available with useful loads anywhere from 850 to just over 1000 pounds. If you plan to take more than 2 people in your 4 seat airplane, that can make a difference of an entire person or about 25 gallons of fuel (about 400 miles of range difference for any given passenger/bag load). When you do that, consider any changes you'll need to make that will require you to add weight or subtract weight. We did not even consider a plane if the useful load was not at least 950 pounds (ours is 960). Best of luck, Bob

I believe the elevators have a weep hole on the bottom to let water out. If you flip them the weep hole will be on top and let water in. I'm guessing they could create a new weep hole to be on the bottom after the flip. If you don't have one, any water in the elevator could freeze at altitude and create heavy elevators that would tend to run you nose down. Might check with Maxwell about that if you go for that option. Bob

Par, Our group bought a J last year. We updated our panel. Install cost as much as the equipment. Being from Seattle area, I don't know anything about who is good and who is not, but I believe that Crownair at MYF in San Diego is a Mooney service center. Have fun! Bob

I found this quote in an M20J POH printed in 1996 (found the POH on line) in the Normal Procedures section. "Do not operate engine at run-up speed unless the oil temperature is at least 75F. (needle moves off White dot). Operation of the engine above 1200 RPM before reaching minimum oil temperature may cause engine damage due to insufficient oil flow for lubrication." Personally, I sit there and idle at 1000 RPM until the oil temp on our JPI comes up to 90F. Its not all a waste of time though. While I'm waiting I reset the fuel remaining on the JPI, program the route in the GPS, set the radios for the first two frequencies, listen to the ATIS/ASOS, set the altimeter, check the trim, etc., then if I'm at an uncontrolled airport like mine I listen to the local traffic for situation awareness. Of course, the whole time I'm sitting there I've got the engine leaned as much as possible (lean to stumble then richen to smooth).